2014 Anger General Greatest of All Time #15

[Bush4Ever]

Dr. J leads the list.

The man averaged 15.7 rebounds as a rookie in the ABA. He joined the NBA in his prime in and is average dipped to 8.5, then down to 6.5 the next season.

Did he just completely change the way he played? Or, was he simply a superior athlete when competing against guys like Ira Hargue in the ABA instead of guys like Dave Cowens in a mixed league?

So, one is "countless", and "statistics" is "rebounding"? Okay.

I did suspect you would lead off with him, though.

Nevertheless, I don't think you can draw a clean causal connection here. Look at his statistics per 100 possessions, and look at his statistics that would be relatively independent of pace.

Nearly identical FG percentage. A drop of 1.8% in total rebound percentage after the merger. Steal and block totals per possession were similar in and around the referenced time frame.

The only major difference was the volume of shot attempts, which went from 26 per 100 possessions to 21. He also played way fewer minutes per game in the NBA, compared to most of his ABA years.

That points way, way more to differences simply being structural changes in the game, and things that are pretty independent of talent in itself (like pace, minutes, or in Dr.J's case moving from a team where he was basically the show to a well-balanced team in the NBA, etc...).

[Robceltsfan]

The Mailman.

[Bush4Ever]

Plus, the late 70s are often considered the death knell of NBA basketball... right after the merger. Are you insinuating that two leagues right before the merger were stronger individually than when they combined only a few years later?

No. I have no idea what you are talking about.

The league started dipping for a number of reasons, and those reasons were almost exclusively indepdent of talent. For one thing, salaries were taking major leaps forward in ways that didn't correspond to revenue, the league was getting "too black" for racist america, they could barely get on TV, and half the damn league was on coke (I jest, sorta).

But again, I'm saying that merely saying "the talent got split, therefore the ABA sucks" statement depends on what your reference point is for something sucking. If it is the absolute level of talent within the league, well...I would match the heart of the ABA against probably any NBA year before the mid 60s, and certainly any year before the shot clock.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Plus, the late 70s are often considered the death knell of NBA basketball... right after the merger. Are you insinuating that two leagues right before the merger were stronger individually than when they combined only a few years later?

No. I have no idea what you are talking about.

The league started dipping for a number of reasons, and those reasons were almost exclusively indepdent of talent. For one thing, salaries were taking major leaps forward in ways that didn't correspond to revenue, the league was getting "too black" for racist america, they could barely get on TV, and half the damn league was on coke (I jest, sorta).

But again, I'm saying that merely saying "the talent got split, therefore the ABA sucks" statement depends on what your reference point is for something sucking. If it is the absolute level of talent within the league, well...I would match the heart of the ABA against probably any NBA year before the mid 60s, and certainly any year before the shot clock.

Blah blah blah.

Let's keep it simple, okay... Again... about 50% of the best players were in another league. Pace. Style. Cocaine binges. Marvin Barnes. Et al... all largely irrelevant.

As for comparing it to games in 1955? C'mon. That's a no-win argument comparing players from different generations. For example, Erving would NOT be as good today. His superior athleticism would not be head and shoulders above anybody. And he didn't have the range to give his team spacing and take advantage of the 3 ball. So in essence, he'd be taking the most inefficient shots in the game.

Does that mean he's not good? Of course not. Just that comparing guys from entirely different eras is difficult because of nutritional education, training, et al. But comparing the ABA/NBA (1970 - 1975) with the merged league in 1976 - 1980 when the league really struggled sure seems like a more relevant comparison.

[Bush4Ever]

Blah blah blah.

Let's keep it simple, okay... Again... about 50% of the best players were in another league. Pace. Style. Cocaine binges. Marvin Barnes. Et al... all largely irrelevant.

As for comparing it to games in 1955? C'mon. That's a no-win argument comparing players from different generations. For example, Erving would NOT be as good today. His superior athleticism would not be head and shoulders above anybody. And he didn't have the range to give his team spacing and take advantage of the 3 ball. So in essence, he'd be taking the most inefficient shots in the game.

Does that mean he's not good? Of course not. Just that comparing guys from entirely different eras is difficult because of nutritional education, training, et al. But comparing the ABA/NBA (1970 - 1975) with the merged league in 1976 - 1980 when the league really struggled sure seems like a more relevant comparison.

So are you judging talent in ABSOLUTE terms (in which case your boy Mikan is totally sunk), or are you judging RELATIVE to peers/talent that the player played against (in which case, Dr. J gets a major boost from the ABA years)?

I'm just trying to understand your mechanism/schema here.

This sort of discussion is exactly why I've said if we are making lists like this, and essentially requiring a comparison of players across era, the best way to do it is to look at ranks within era/year as opposed to raw volume statistics, so you can judge how good they were compared to their peers.

[Y2K]

[Bush4Ever]

Don't bother getting the popcorn. Abe is completely incoherent.

"The ABA sucked herp derp"

*Nominates a man who played like 8 years in an all-white league, none of whom would even make a good D1 team today, or probably even in the 1970s*

LOL!

[Y2K]

Don't bother getting the popcorn. Abe is completely incoherent.

"The ABA sucked herp derp"

*Nominates a man who played like 8 years in an all-white league, none of whom would even make a good D1 team today, or probably even in the 1970s*

LOL!

[Bush4Ever]

Agreed. Abe's position is worthy of laughter.

That's why he is too scared to respond.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Agreed. Abe's position is worthy of laughter.

That's why he is too scared to respond.

Yo Bush, when you're trolling, it's usually best not to endorse an angle you've criticized over and over again in the past. I can't take you seriously if you're thinking I can't see through your ruse.

[Bush4Ever]

Yo Bush, when you're trolling, it's usually best not to endorse an angle you've criticized over and over again in the past. I can't take you seriously if you're thinking I can't see through your ruse.

I manipulated you into responding.

Also, I have never, ever criticized an "against peers" styled analysis for such things. Can you give a specific link that shows this?

I bet not.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Yo Bush, when you're trolling, it's usually best not to endorse an angle you've criticized over and over again in the past. I can't take you seriously if you're thinking I can't see through your ruse.

I manipulated you into responding.

Also, I have never, ever criticized an "against peers" styled analysis for such things. Can you give a specific link that shows this?

I bet not.

I will show you my link. After you show me yours.

[Bush4Ever]

I hope everyone can see Abe didn't actually answer my question.

[Bush4Ever]

Hey does anyone know how you can promote George Mikan over Dr. J because "The ABA split the talent", while ignoring the fact that the NBA at the time "split the talent" by having exactly zero black players (the Globetrotters in fact, played the Mikan Lakers reasonably well when they were matched at the time).

Anyone?

[Deez]

[Havlicekstealsit]

PS look at his giant fucking hands around that ball. It was like a goddamn nerfball for him.

[thedangerouskitchen]

What do you mean you stopped voting altogether? You just voted for pippen. How do you vote for mikan in the top 10, then vote for pippen at 15 despite an earlier pick of yours still being on the board? Like I said, it's as if you realized your troll attempt was futile so you're now trolling a different angle

You're an idiot... clearly I was joking, evidenced by the " " placed at the end of my sentence. As noted, when Oscar Robertson is voted #12 all-time then there is no point is taking this list serious.

And FTR... I provided a plethora of reasons for Mikan at #10, to which you had -0- retort. So get lost.

What's your argument against big o being ranked at 12? If it's just the "only one ring and MVP" argument, that's pretty weak and will get torn apart. Serious question, would you rank pippen over him?

Championships and MVP's won is a "pretty weak" argument? Really...??

So why is Russell #2 all-time? Because of his Defense?



How is Kobe ranked #8 (ahead of guys like LeBron, Shaq, Dream, both Malone's, Robinson, West, etc, etc, etc) if Rings and MVP's are weak criteria?


Do tell...

[thedangerouskitchen]

Not for nothing but why are guys like Barkley, McHale, Malone, Robinson and Garnett listed for consideration and Pippen isn't... ?

Sidekick!

and c'mon, nobody is voting McHale

Kobe was a side-kick half his career... yet he's #8 all-time???

GTHOH with that

[thedangerouskitchen]

What do you mean you stopped voting altogether? You just voted for pippen. How do you vote for mikan in the top 10, then vote for pippen at 15 despite an earlier pick of yours still being on the board? Like I said, it's as if you realized your troll attempt was futile so you're now trolling a different angle

You're an idiot... clearly I was joking, evidenced by the " " placed at the end of my sentence. As noted, when Oscar Robertson is voted #12 all-time then there is no point is taking this list serious.

And FTR... I provided a plethora of reasons for Mikan at #10, to which you had -0- retort. So get lost.

I don't get why only 1 ring and 1 MVP award is the only thing u keep focusing on.

On Straight Basketball skill, He's arguably one of the top 10 if not 5 best players to actually play in the NBA. He could damn near do it all.

So why is Russell #2 again, when he was mediocre at HALF the game?

On straight basketball skill Pippen is surely one of the 10-15 most complete / all-around players... and he's arguably the greatest perimeter Defender ever (which is half the game) with 6 Championships.

Why isn't he Top 10-15 all-time...?

Point being, there is no consistency with how posters are ranking players. One guy (Russell) is ranked #2 because of his Rings and MVP's while in Oscar's case Rings and MVP's don't matter.

That's just crazy.

There has to be a consistent criteria used equally for every player... and clearly that's not the case with most posters' voting.

[876Stephen]

You're an idiot... clearly I was joking, evidenced by the " " placed at the end of my sentence. As noted, when Oscar Robertson is voted #12 all-time then there is no point is taking this list serious.

And FTR... I provided a plethora of reasons for Mikan at #10, to which you had -0- retort. So get lost.

I don't get why only 1 ring and 1 MVP award is the only thing u keep focusing on.

On Straight Basketball skill, He's arguably one of the top 10 if not 5 best players to actually play in the NBA. He could damn near do it all.

So why is Russell #2 again, when he was mediocre at HALF the game?

On straight basketball skill Pippen is surely one of the 10-15 most complete / all-around players... and he's arguably the greatest perimeter Defender ever (which is half the game) with 6 Championships.

Why isn't he Top 10-15 all-time...?

Point being, there is no consistency with how posters ranks players. One guy (Russell) is ranked #2 because of his Rings and MVP's while in Oscar's case RIngs and MVP's don't matter.

That's just crazy.

There has to be a consistent criteria used equally for every player... and clearly that's not the case with most posters' voting.

Your acting like Ocar is being put in in the top 5 or 10 or something.

He's ranked 12 dude. Not even ranked that high.