What year did Pippen become

[Bush4Ever.]

Pippen without Jordan had twice the talent of any team Jordan was on without Pippen. Don’t be such an idiot, Bush. You are smarter than that. You speak from a homer opinion on Pippen when you don’t know shit from those teams on how those players were or even looked at the game with Pippen or Jordan.

True.

Look at this super-stacked team of Pippen, Rasheed Wallace, and Bonzi Wells.

What a powerhouse.

By the way, they won 50 games that year.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/te ... /2003.html

Or this year, with largely the same core (49 wins):

https://www.basketball-reference.com/te ... /2003.html

What powerhouse talent. The immortal Bonzi Wells.

ALMOST on par with George Gervin (HOFer), Charles Oakley (all-star talent, once he got away from Jordan), Orlando Woolridge (multiple 20+ a game scorer and future champion in LA), Richard Hamilton (multiple 20+ a game scorer, and 20 a game+ring guy *two* years after he escaped Jordan in Washington), etc....

You people need to be serious.

Complimenting Jordan's individual talent/play is obvious. Complimenting his leadership and player development (ignore his complete futility as a GM in that regard too...don't look at that evidence! Don't!) is signaling to others you are a Jordan Jocker.

I say all of this as a bigtime MJ fan myself.
But we have to be honest about it as MJ fans, no matter how much it hurts us.

[Deez]

Pippen without Jordan had twice the talent of any team Jordan was on without Pippen. Don’t be such an idiot, Bush. You are smarter than that. You speak from a homer opinion on Pippen when you don’t know shit from those teams on how those players were or even looked at the game with Pippen or Jordan.

True.

Look at this super-stacked team of Pippen, Rasheed Wallace, and Bonzi Wells.

What a powerhouse.

By the way, they won 50 games that year.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/te ... /2003.html

Or this year, with largely the same core (49 wins):

https://www.basketball-reference.com/te ... /2003.html

What powerhouse talent. The immortal Bonzi Wells.

ALMOST on par with George Gervin (HOFer), Charles Oakley (all-star talent, once he got away from Jordan), Orlando Woolridge (multiple 20+ a game scorer and future champion in LA), Richard Hamilton (multiple 20+ a game scorer, and 20 a game+ring guy *two* years after he escaped Jordan in Washington), etc....

You people need to be serious.

Complimenting Jordan's individual talent/play is obvious. Complimenting his leadership and player development (ignore his complete futility as a GM in that regard too...don't look at that evidence! Don't!) is signaling to others you are a Jordan Jocker.

I say all of this as a bigtime MJ fan myself.
But we have to be honest about it as MJ fans, no matter how much it hurts us.

Sheed and Bonzi, what 2 players did Jordan have better? Hell, Pippen couldn’t make the finals with Barkley and Olajuwon.

[Bush4Ever.]

Sheed and Bonzi, what 2 players did Jordan have better?

I already listed the all-star *talents* Jordan played with in a previous post, although I actually missed some.

Jordan not developing their talents as a so-called leader doesn't mean the talent didn't exist in the first place or "doesn't count".

In 2003, Jordan played with:

All-star talent Christian Laettner
All-star talent Jerry Stackhouse
All-star talent Charles Oakley (half-season)
A guy with multiple 20 point/game seasons (Hughes)
His personally selected coach

And won 37 games. Complete and total failure.

When the East was absolutely horrific.

Trae Young is more accomplished without a top 30 all-time player on his team than Michael Jordan is, literally and factually.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Jordan was a 39-40 year old man during the 03 season... prime Jordan takes those Wizards to the Finals with ease, at worst.

Bush is starting to embarrass himself now.

[Bush4Ever.]

So Lebron at 39 with 66K minutes on his legs = valid to criticize/judge as is, while Michael Jordan at age 39 with 48K minutes on his legs = not fair to simply state what happened in objective reality.

Got it. Makes a lot of sense.

Somehow. But we definitely aren't slanting things towards Jordan. No siree bob.

[Bush4Ever.]

It's honestly sad how Jordan Jockers have a built-in excuse for literally every Michael Jordan failure.

Whatever people think about Jordan shouldn't impact your life and how you see yourself and your value as a human being, whatever it is.

It's just not that important. You can be honest.

[Y2K]

Pip cemented HOF status at the conclusion of the Bulls dynasty in 1998. Maybe he gets in some 10+ years later without the 2nd 3peat but it definitely isn't a foregone conclusion.

Pre 1995-96:

5x all-star
3 NBA Championships
4x All-NBA (2 First-Team)
All-Defense (4 First-Team)
1 All-Star Game MVP

[PhutureDynasty]

There's a definite disconnect between the actual standards that are required to make the basketball HOF (which includes college but most NBA fans don't care as much about that resume when discussing a HOF player) and what an NBA fan views as a HOFer.

Because I would argue that NBA fans in general would have less hall of fame players than have actually been inducted.

We're stricter than they are.

As a small side, the baseball HOF feels like the exact opposite (with exceptions).

[thedangerouskitchen]

So Lebron at 39 with 66K minutes on his legs = valid to criticize/judge as is, while Michael Jordan at age 39 with 48K minutes on his legs = not fair to simply state what happened in objective reality.

Got it. Makes a lot of sense.

Somehow. But we definitely aren't slanting things towards Jordan. No siree bob.

38-40 year old Jordan didn't join the Wizards (after 3 years in retirement) with the goal of winning a Championship OR to pad his stats OR to build on his GOAT resume... his intention (as President of Ops) was to try to establish a 'winning-attitude' culture into a (then) bottom-feeder franchise that was the equivalent of today's Orlando Tragic.

LeCommie, on the other hand, ran chicken to the Lakers to chase Rings.

Big difference.

...and you're free to rip on "Wizards' Jordan" all you want. Hell, I for one loved the fact that he returned just because of who he was/is BUT I hated the fact that it was going to put a bit of a mark on his near-perfect GOAT resume with the Bulls. But regardless, his stint with the Wizards (ie; inheriting a 19-win team at the age of 38 after being retired for 3 years) doesn't change the fact that Jordan accomplished MORE in 11 "full" seasons with the Bulls than your hero LeCommie will have accomplished in 21 years.

[thedangerouskitchen]

It's honestly sad how Jordan Jockers have a built-in excuse for literally every Michael Jordan failure.

Whatever people think about Jordan shouldn't impact your life and how you see yourself and your value as a human being, whatever it is.

It's just not that important. You can be honest.

Only a bush-league troll would consider losing to the 4/5 HOFER stacked Celtics/Pistons a "failure" when the talent on his own team was vastly inferior.

Jordan's ONLY "failure" (if you even want to call it that, given that he just returned to the sport after a 1.5 year layoff) was the series against the Magic in 95, when he made a couple of rare (for him) mistakes in crucial moments. Other than that Jordan's resume is closer to perfection than any player in the history of the NBA.

...and as deez told you already; don't be an idiot. In other words, if you think I carry over these message board exchanges into real life then you should PM me immediately because I'd like to sell you some prime ocean-front property in downtown Chicago.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Pip cemented HOF status at the conclusion of the Bulls dynasty in 1998. Maybe he gets in some 10+ years later without the 2nd 3peat but it definitely isn't a foregone conclusion.

Pre 1995-96:

5x all-star
3 NBA Championships
4x All-NBA (2 First-Team)
5x All-Defense (4 First-Team)
1 All-Star Game MVP

Add to that 18/7/5/49% career numbers (20/8/6/49% as a full-time starter circa 90-95), in addition to being regarded as one of THE greatest Defensive (and all-around) players to ever play the game made Pippen a HOF lock before the second 3-Peat... IMO anyway.

[Deez]

Sheed and Bonzi, what 2 players did Jordan have better?

I already listed the all-star *talents* Jordan played with in a previous post, although I actually missed some.

Jordan not developing their talents as a so-called leader doesn't mean the talent didn't exist in the first place or "doesn't count".

In 2003, Jordan played with:

All-star talent Christian Laettner
All-star talent Jerry Stackhouse
All-star talent Charles Oakley (half-season)
A guy with multiple 20 point/game seasons (Hughes)
His personally selected coach

And won 37 games. Complete and total failure.

When the East was absolutely horrific.

Trae Young is more accomplished without a top 30 all-time player on his team than Michael Jordan is, literally and factually.

Lol, as sad as it is, sheed and bonzi look pretty damn good compared to that list

[Da Stars.]

Bushy adds Oakley because he was once an All star to MJ's list of failures averaging a whopping two points a game. But does not add Hall of Fame player Arvydas Sabonis to the list of players Scottie played with.

[Deez]

Bushy adds Oakley because he was once an All star to MJ's list of failures averaging a whopping two points a game. But does not add Hall of Fame player Arvydas Sabonis to the list of players Scottie played with.

Bush talks out of his ass pretty often. Nothing new

[Bush4Ever.]

Jayson Tatum is more accomplished than Michael Jordan when not playing with a top 30 player all-time.

Tatum took the Celtics to multiple ECFs and a Finals without one.
Jordan didn't get out of the first round without one (when he did make the playoffs that is).

By the way, Sabonis is a HOF almost exclusively on the basis of his international play, not his non-all star filled NBA career.

As a Jordan fan, I hate saying this, but it's true.

Have a good Friday night

[thedangerouskitchen]

Jayson Tatum is more accomplished than Michael Jordan when not playing with a top 30 player all-time.

Scottie Pippen wasn't Top 30 circa 88-90, silly bush-league troll... he needed several years of mentoring, leadership, and toughening up (from Jordan) before he developed into that level as a player.

So in essense it was Jordan who "made" Pippen a Top 30 player of all time, rendering all your posts ITT completely irrelevant and moot.

[Bush4Ever.]

If Pippen's success was 100 percent due to Jordan, then removing Jordan (like in 1994) should remove all his success.

But it didn't.

He got BETTER. Not even the same, but better and superior.

The evidence is stronger that Jordan actually harmed Pippen's game than helped, let alone "completely and totally made".

Like I've said and like no one has refuted, the evidence that Pippen made Jordan's legacy is MUCH stronger than the idea that Jordan made Pippen's legacy.

Jordan without Pippen = A+ stats, D level team success
Pippen without Jordan = B+ stats, A- level team success

Jordan without Pippen is essentially the career arc of Trae Young. Great statistics with minimal team success.

[Bush4Ever.]

Interesting how Jordan's leadership did a complete curve around literally every other player he played with except Scottie Pippen.

You think if he could create all this talent he would have a bunch of other examples in play, and not long lists of guys who had more success apart from him than with him (like Grant, Armstrong, George Gervin, Charles Oakley, and all the rest listed...Jerry Stackhouse, etc...).

If you want to know the value of Jordan's leadership, you can simply look to his career as an executive, because those outcomes remove Jordan's individual basketball ability from the equation. The result? Bottom 10 executive in NBA history.

It's not a coincidence.

[Bush4Ever.]

I say all that as a Jordan fan btw. It hurts, but it is what it is

Enjoy the weekend guys.

[Titan18]

Alright boys, may be time to let up on Bush. Don’t think he can take much more