Post your NBA Top Ten ATG and criteria

[Kingcarl24]

Apologies for the double post. For some reason on my phone, it won't allow me to delete a post in the last little while. I'll do it from my tablet when I go back inside.

I got your back.

[vcsgrizzfan]

Apologies for the double post. For some reason on my phone, it won't allow me to delete a post in the last little while. I'll do it from my tablet when I go back inside.

I got your back.

Thank you!

[Y2K]

The one thing that I can say about my revamped list is that Kobe Bryant does not make my top 10.

[rtiff68]

Not to derail this thread, but taking a stab at 10-20 might be a more interesting exercise, as "1-10" has been done to death here and in every other corner of the internet/media.

Jordan, KAJ, Russell, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, LeBron. That's 11 player for 10 spots, and just about every list has them in some order.

I think there would be a LOT more variance (and, as a result, talking points) in a 10-20 discussion. How do you compare Oscar, Malone, Barkley, Dirk, KG to each other? To guys like Curry, Durant, Wade, and West?

[Bush4Ever35]

The funny thing is that I know exactly how I would attempt to get at a ranking if I had unlimited time, unlimited access to *good* data, and so on. It's just ultra-complex to analyze a dynamic system like basketball. No two ways about it. The things I study in real life are probably more complex, but the conclusions are at a *much* more conservative level than trying to tease out if a guy is ranked 9th, 10th, or 11th on an all-time list and so on.

The problem is I just don't have the time or the access to data to do the thing like I would want to if I were publishing my results with my name and reputation attached, etc...

But as general rule, I think I...

1. Tend to value (quality) longevity a bit more than most, and peak a bit less.

2. Relative ranks (i.e, 3rd, 5th, etc...) more than absolute values (25.5 PER or 11.4 rebounds per game).

3. Viewing certain awards through a continuous lens instead of a binary lens (like MVP award shares vs MVPs)

4. Challenge "Barber Shop Truisms" more than most. Like the tendency to weigh the final two minutes of a game grossly disproportionate to the first 46 minutes because it's "crunch time", and things like that.

5. Only care about observable production and not how one gets to that production (i.e. the "pure skillz", "will to win", and these things), unless how one gets to that production is heavily dependent on their situation (i.e.-their game isn't very generalizable to other situations within era).

I think that once you get past the top 3 at the moment (Jordan, Kareem, and Lebron...with Russell being sort of off to the side because of how unusual he was and how much his ranking depends on a person's specific methodology), the next 8ish guys are clustered together pretty damn closely.

Remember, in a top 10 or 20 list, we are exclusively selecting from guys in the upper 99th+ percentile of NBA players.

Not to derail this thread, but taking a stab at 10-20 might be a more interesting exercise, as "1-10" has been done to death here and in every other corner of the internet/media.

Jordan, KAJ, Russell, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, LeBron. That's 11 player for 10 spots, and just about every list has them in some order.

I think there would be a LOT more variance (and, as a result, talking points) in a 10-20 discussion. How do you compare Oscar, Malone, Barkley, Dirk, KG to each other? To guys like Curry, Durant, Wade, and West?

I think since I've become less lazy and more interested in analyzing newer analytics and information, the guys on that list that I've flipped the most on are Moses (I heavily overestimated him), Barkley (greatly underestimated just how amazing his offensive production was), and KG (scouting report right, but underestimating his impact seen through nonbox metrics).

[Odogg]

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. LBJ
6. Bird
7. Wilt
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Shaq

Hakeem has a case for top ten, but none of this wussy tie stuff here. Someone needs to get snubbed, and it is Hakeem. Definitely a tremendous talent, but other than 86 and of course the two ring years in 94 and 95, there is really not enough playoff resume to point to. When looking at all time rankings, I definitely value rings (lead dog or co lead dog) and playoff performance. Hakeem was too content with a long stretch of mediocrity in Houston.

[rtiff68]

[/quote]I think since I've become less lazy and more interested in analyzing newer analytics and information, the guys on that list that I've flipped the most on are Moses (I heavily overestimated him), Barkley (greatly underestimated just how amazing his offensive production was), and KG (scouting report right, but underestimating his impact seen through nonbox metrics).[/quote]

I hear you.

I've always been pretty high on KG. I've also always been really high on Duncan, and I've always felt that the difference between them purely in terms of overall impact (obviously not style of play) has always been fairly negligible.

I actually think that LeBron's "decision" in 2010 might have had a lot to do with KG's career-- here's an MVP caliber guy who stayed loyal to a small market team his entire career and they surrounded him with dogshit. He jumps to a team with some talent late in his career when he's at about 80-85% of what he was at his peak (my non-scientific estimation), and he goes Title-Injury-FInals Game 7 loss. If he'd left the Wolves 3-4 years earlier-- or, if he hadn't gotten injured in 2009 or a ball or two had bounced differently in 2010 in Game 7-- he'd be a LOCK for the top 10.

His career was kind of a cautionary tale for player's looking to build a legacy (in our "ringzzz" obsessed culture).

[LNS]

If anyone cares, my criteria isn’t exactly scientific or even what I’d consider balanced. I tried to factor in titles, individual dominance (MVP’s, statistical accolades), and longevity (All Time leading records). I didn’t give a ton of weight to All Star and All NBA selections, TBH.

Kareem I have first because he’s the All Time leading scorer, 3rd All Time in rebounds, 3rd All Time in blocked shots, 6 titles, 6 MVP’s, 2 FMVP’s...

Jordan is second with 6 titles, 6 FMVP’s, 5 MVP’s, 10 scoring titles, a DPOY, 4th All Time in points...

Russell is third because he has 11 titles, 5 MVP’s, 2nd All Time in rebounds...

Wilt is a bit of an outlier, but he gets more brownie points due to his otherworldly stats. He won 2 titles, 4 MVP’s, 1 FMVP, 7 scoring titles, 1 assist title, 11 rebounding titles, 1st All Time in rebounds, and then of course there’s the record setting 100 point game and a plethora of other ridiculous statistical records...

Magic won 5 titles, 3 MVP’s, 3 FMVP’s, 4 assists titles, 5th All Time in assists...

Timmy won 5 titles, 3 FMVP’s, 2 MVP’s, 5th All Time in blocked shots, 6th All Time in rebounds...

Lebron won 3 titles, 3 FMVP’s, 4 MVP’s, 1 scoring title, 7th All Time in points... he’s the only guy on the list whose place isn’t set TBH, as he can still move up the list.

Kobe won 5 titles, 2 FMVP’s, 1 MVP, 2 scoring titles, 3rd All Time in points, 1 Academy Award

Bird won 3 titles, 2 FMVP’s, 3 MVP’s... I have him lower than most because he’s not in the top 25 All Time for points, rebounds, or assists. And I know he got hurt and all that, but this isn’t “what if...?”.

Shaq won 4 titles, 3 FMVP’s, 1 MVP, 2 scoring titles, 8th All Time in points, 14th All Time in rebounds, 8th All Time in blocked shots... TBH I might switch Bird and Shaq...

[PhutureDynasty]

If anyone cares, my criteria isn’t exactly scientific or even what I’d consider balanced. I tried to factor in titles, individual dominance (MVP’s, statistical accolades), and longevity (All Time leading records). I didn’t give a ton of weight to All Star and All NBA selections, TBH.

Kareem I have first because he’s the All Time leading scorer, 3rd All Time in rebounds, 3rd All Time in blocked shots, 6 titles, 6 MVP’s, 2 FMVP’s...

Jordan is second with 6 titles, 6 FMVP’s, 5 MVP’s, 10 scoring titles, a DPOY, 4th All Time in points...

Russell is third because he has 11 titles, 5 MVP’s, 2nd All Time in rebounds...

Wilt is a bit of an outlier, but he gets more brownie points due to his otherworldly stats. He won 2 titles, 4 MVP’s, 1 FMVP, 7 scoring titles, 1 assist title, 11 rebounding titles, 1st All Time in rebounds, and then of course there’s the record setting 100 point game and a plethora of other ridiculous statistical records...

Magic won 5 titles, 3 MVP’s, 3 FMVP’s, 4 assists titles, 5th All Time in assists...

Timmy won 5 titles, 3 FMVP’s, 2 MVP’s, 5th All Time in blocked shots, 6th All Time in rebounds...

Lebron won 3 titles, 3 FMVP’s, 4 MVP’s, 1 scoring title, 7th All Time in points... he’s the only guy on the list whose place isn’t set TBH, as he can still move up the list.

Kobe won 5 titles, 2 FMVP’s, 1 MVP, 2 scoring titles, 3rd All Time in points, 1 Academy Award

Bird won 3 titles, 2 FMVP’s, 3 MVP’s... I have him lower than most because he’s not in the top 25 All Time for points, rebounds, or assists. And I know he got hurt and all that, but this isn’t “what if...?”.

Shaq won 4 titles, 3 FMVP’s, 1 MVP, 2 scoring titles, 8th All Time in points, 14th All Time in rebounds, 8th All Time in blocked shots... TBH I might switch Bird and Shaq...

If Kobe gets credit for his Academy Award, than we have to give LeBron credit for his as well...

for flopping.

[elmouse03]

If anyone cares, my criteria isn’t exactly scientific or even what I’d consider balanced. I tried to factor in titles, individual dominance (MVP’s, statistical accolades), and longevity (All Time leading records). I didn’t give a ton of weight to All Star and All NBA selections, TBH.

Kareem I have first because he’s the All Time leading scorer, 3rd All Time in rebounds, 3rd All Time in blocked shots, 6 titles, 6 MVP’s, 2 FMVP’s...

Jordan is second with 6 titles, 6 FMVP’s, 5 MVP’s, 10 scoring titles, a DPOY, 4th All Time in points...

Russell is third because he has 11 titles, 5 MVP’s, 2nd All Time in rebounds...

Wilt is a bit of an outlier, but he gets more brownie points due to his otherworldly stats. He won 2 titles, 4 MVP’s, 1 FMVP, 7 scoring titles, 1 assist title, 11 rebounding titles, 1st All Time in rebounds, and then of course there’s the record setting 100 point game and a plethora of other ridiculous statistical records...

Magic won 5 titles, 3 MVP’s, 3 FMVP’s, 4 assists titles, 5th All Time in assists...

Timmy won 5 titles, 3 FMVP’s, 2 MVP’s, 5th All Time in blocked shots, 6th All Time in rebounds...

Lebron won 3 titles, 3 FMVP’s, 4 MVP’s, 1 scoring title, 7th All Time in points... he’s the only guy on the list whose place isn’t set TBH, as he can still move up the list.

Kobe won 5 titles, 2 FMVP’s, 1 MVP, 2 scoring titles, 3rd All Time in points, 1 Academy Award

Bird won 3 titles, 2 FMVP’s, 3 MVP’s... I have him lower than most because he’s not in the top 25 All Time for points, rebounds, or assists. And I know he got hurt and all that, but this isn’t “what if...?”.

Shaq won 4 titles, 3 FMVP’s, 1 MVP, 2 scoring titles, 8th All Time in points, 14th All Time in rebounds, 8th All Time in blocked shots... TBH I might switch Bird and Shaq...

If Kobe gets credit for his Academy Award, than we have to give LeBron credit for his as well...

for flopping.

[LNS]

I might remove Bird from my top 10 altogether TBH. Hakeem won 2 titles, 2 FMVP’s, 1 MVP, 2 DPOY’s, 1st All Time in blocked shots, 13th All Time in rebounds, 11th All Time in points...

I’ll actually keep Bird for now, but I’m soooo tempted to bump him from my Top 10.

[PhutureDynasty]

If anyone cares, my criteria isn’t exactly scientific or even what I’d consider balanced. I tried to factor in titles, individual dominance (MVP’s, statistical accolades), and longevity (All Time leading records). I didn’t give a ton of weight to All Star and All NBA selections, TBH.

Kareem I have first because he’s the All Time leading scorer, 3rd All Time in rebounds, 3rd All Time in blocked shots, 6 titles, 6 MVP’s, 2 FMVP’s...

Jordan is second with 6 titles, 6 FMVP’s, 5 MVP’s, 10 scoring titles, a DPOY, 4th All Time in points...

Russell is third because he has 11 titles, 5 MVP’s, 2nd All Time in rebounds...

Wilt is a bit of an outlier, but he gets more brownie points due to his otherworldly stats. He won 2 titles, 4 MVP’s, 1 FMVP, 7 scoring titles, 1 assist title, 11 rebounding titles, 1st All Time in rebounds, and then of course there’s the record setting 100 point game and a plethora of other ridiculous statistical records...

Magic won 5 titles, 3 MVP’s, 3 FMVP’s, 4 assists titles, 5th All Time in assists...

Timmy won 5 titles, 3 FMVP’s, 2 MVP’s, 5th All Time in blocked shots, 6th All Time in rebounds...

Lebron won 3 titles, 3 FMVP’s, 4 MVP’s, 1 scoring title, 7th All Time in points... he’s the only guy on the list whose place isn’t set TBH, as he can still move up the list.

Kobe won 5 titles, 2 FMVP’s, 1 MVP, 2 scoring titles, 3rd All Time in points, 1 Academy Award

Bird won 3 titles, 2 FMVP’s, 3 MVP’s... I have him lower than most because he’s not in the top 25 All Time for points, rebounds, or assists. And I know he got hurt and all that, but this isn’t “what if...?”.

Shaq won 4 titles, 3 FMVP’s, 1 MVP, 2 scoring titles, 8th All Time in points, 14th All Time in rebounds, 8th All Time in blocked shots... TBH I might switch Bird and Shaq...

If Kobe gets credit for his Academy Award, than we have to give LeBron credit for his as well...

for flopping.

[rtiff68]

If anyone cares, my criteria isn’t exactly scientific or even what I’d consider balanced. I tried to factor in titles, individual dominance (MVP’s, statistical accolades), and longevity (All Time leading records). I didn’t give a ton of weight to All Star and All NBA selections, TBH.

Kareem I have first because he’s the All Time leading scorer, 3rd All Time in rebounds, 3rd All Time in blocked shots, 6 titles, 6 MVP’s, 2 FMVP’s...

Jordan is second with 6 titles, 6 FMVP’s, 5 MVP’s, 10 scoring titles, a DPOY, 4th All Time in points...

Russell is third because he has 11 titles, 5 MVP’s, 2nd All Time in rebounds...

Wilt is a bit of an outlier, but he gets more brownie points due to his otherworldly stats. He won 2 titles, 4 MVP’s, 1 FMVP, 7 scoring titles, 1 assist title, 11 rebounding titles, 1st All Time in rebounds, and then of course there’s the record setting 100 point game and a plethora of other ridiculous statistical records...

Magic won 5 titles, 3 MVP’s, 3 FMVP’s, 4 assists titles, 5th All Time in assists...

Timmy won 5 titles, 3 FMVP’s, 2 MVP’s, 5th All Time in blocked shots, 6th All Time in rebounds...

Lebron won 3 titles, 3 FMVP’s, 4 MVP’s, 1 scoring title, 7th All Time in points... he’s the only guy on the list whose place isn’t set TBH, as he can still move up the list.

Kobe won 5 titles, 2 FMVP’s, 1 MVP, 2 scoring titles, 3rd All Time in points, 1 Academy Award

Bird won 3 titles, 2 FMVP’s, 3 MVP’s... I have him lower than most because he’s not in the top 25 All Time for points, rebounds, or assists. And I know he got hurt and all that, but this isn’t “what if...?”.

Shaq won 4 titles, 3 FMVP’s, 1 MVP, 2 scoring titles, 8th All Time in points, 14th All Time in rebounds, 8th All Time in blocked shots... TBH I might switch Bird and Shaq...

It's interesting that you listed the titles for each player because, In a nutshell, the reason I value peak more than longevity is because it ultimately leads to a greater chance at winning titles.

Generically speaking, being good enough to be the most important player on a title team is exponentially more rare than being the 2nd most important, 3rd most important, etc. Case in point: guys like Tony Parker and Pau Gasol's careers are elevated by the fact that they each won multiple titles, but there's WAY more guys that could play second fiddle to guys like Kobe or Duncan than guys who could actually be Kobe or Duncan.

Both TMac and Joe Johnson are 7 time All Stars. JJ has had fantastic longevity, TMac didn't at all; that said, at his peak, TMac was in the conversation for "best player in the game." He never was, but he was in the conversation-- JJ wasn't ever close.

I'd rather have 5 years of prime Aaron Rodgers than 15 years of Matthew Stafford. I'll take a guy I can build a championship roster around for 3-5 years over a "star" who can't be that guy (Pierce, Kidd, Wilkins, etc.) for 10-15 years.

The former gives me the better odds of winning the most titles (despite the smaller window) because those guys are so exceedingly rare.

[Bush4Ever35]

I might remove Bird from my top 10 altogether TBH. Hakeem won 2 titles, 2 FMVP’s, 1 MVP, 2 DPOY’s, 1st All Time in blocked shots, 13th All Time in rebounds, 11th All Time in points...

I’ll actually keep Bird for now, but I’m soooo tempted to bump him from my Top 10.

Bird actually rates as having an "MVP-level" season every year until 1988, which in turn was a "weak MVP" year per Ben Taylor's categorization.

A list that heavily values longevity can reasonably have Bird barely out of the top 10.

A list that heavily values peaks/primes probably cannot. Bird packed an unreal amount of value from 1980 to 1988.

[LNS]

I might remove Bird from my top 10 altogether TBH. Hakeem won 2 titles, 2 FMVP’s, 1 MVP, 2 DPOY’s, 1st All Time in blocked shots, 13th All Time in rebounds, 11th All Time in points...

I’ll actually keep Bird for now, but I’m soooo tempted to bump him from my Top 10.

Bird actually rates as having an "MVP-level" season every year until 1988, which in turn was a "weak MVP" year per Ben Taylor's categorization.

A list that heavily values longevity can reasonably have Bird barely out of the top 10.

A list that heavily values peaks/primes probably cannot. Bird packed an unreal amount of value from 1980 to 1988.

You know what? You just talked Bird outta my top 10.

[LNS]

If anyone cares, my criteria isn’t exactly scientific or even what I’d consider balanced. I tried to factor in titles, individual dominance (MVP’s, statistical accolades), and longevity (All Time leading records). I didn’t give a ton of weight to All Star and All NBA selections, TBH.

Kareem I have first because he’s the All Time leading scorer, 3rd All Time in rebounds, 3rd All Time in blocked shots, 6 titles, 6 MVP’s, 2 FMVP’s...

Jordan is second with 6 titles, 6 FMVP’s, 5 MVP’s, 10 scoring titles, a DPOY, 4th All Time in points...

Russell is third because he has 11 titles, 5 MVP’s, 2nd All Time in rebounds...

Wilt is a bit of an outlier, but he gets more brownie points due to his otherworldly stats. He won 2 titles, 4 MVP’s, 1 FMVP, 7 scoring titles, 1 assist title, 11 rebounding titles, 1st All Time in rebounds, and then of course there’s the record setting 100 point game and a plethora of other ridiculous statistical records...

Magic won 5 titles, 3 MVP’s, 3 FMVP’s, 4 assists titles, 5th All Time in assists...

Timmy won 5 titles, 3 FMVP’s, 2 MVP’s, 5th All Time in blocked shots, 6th All Time in rebounds...

Lebron won 3 titles, 3 FMVP’s, 4 MVP’s, 1 scoring title, 7th All Time in points... he’s the only guy on the list whose place isn’t set TBH, as he can still move up the list.

Kobe won 5 titles, 2 FMVP’s, 1 MVP, 2 scoring titles, 3rd All Time in points, 1 Academy Award

Bird won 3 titles, 2 FMVP’s, 3 MVP’s... I have him lower than most because he’s not in the top 25 All Time for points, rebounds, or assists. And I know he got hurt and all that, but this isn’t “what if...?”.

Shaq won 4 titles, 3 FMVP’s, 1 MVP, 2 scoring titles, 8th All Time in points, 14th All Time in rebounds, 8th All Time in blocked shots... TBH I might switch Bird and Shaq...

It's interesting that you listed the titles for each player because, In a nutshell, the reason I value peak more than longevity is because it ultimately leads to a greater chance at winning titles.

Generically speaking, being good enough to be the most important player on a title team is exponentially more rare than being the 2nd most important, 3rd most important, etc. Case in point: guys like Tony Parker and Pau Gasol's careers are elevated by the fact that they each won multiple titles, but there's WAY more guys that could play second fiddle to guys like Kobe or Duncan than guys who could actually be Kobe or Duncan.

Both TMac and Joe Johnson are 7 time All Stars. JJ has had fantastic longevity, TMac didn't at all; that said, at his peak, TMac was in the conversation for "best player in the game." He never was, but he was in the conversation-- JJ wasn't ever close.

I'd rather have 5 years of prime Aaron Rodgers than 15 years of Matthew Stafford. I'll take a guy I can build a championship roster around for 3-5 years over a "star" who can't be that guy (Pierce, Kidd, Wilkins, etc.) for 10-15 years.

The former gives me the better odds of winning the most titles (despite the smaller window) because those guys are so exceedingly rare.

I get that, I just don’t rate guys on potential, just what they actually accomplished. Certain players clearly had greater peaks than others, there’s no denying that, but I personally don’t think it’s fair to say “I rate so-and-so higher than this guy because he’d give you a better window for winning titles”. I made my list as accomplishment driven as possible, and tried my best to avoid “what if?” scenarios, the eye test, or subjective elements like skill sets.

But these types of lists are all subjective either way, so IMO there’s really no wrong list. Like you said in this thread, we all seem to have some assortment of the same players in our top 10.

[Bush4Ever35]

You know what? You just talked Bird outta my top 10.

No, but it was interesting to read about how good Bird's early seasons actually were.

I had always viewed his career in sort of a trimester format (early years, middle years, late years...with some scraps tacked on at the very end).

I knew his middle years (84-86) were all-time seasons, but I thought his early seasons were less impressive than Ben Taylor seemed to think.

One thing is that a young Bird was a whirlwind moving without the ball, and chasing offensive rebounds. He recounted in one of his books how he use to go after offensive rebounds extremely hard, but Red Auerbach chastised him and told him while he was doing that "his man was breaking down court for fast break points".

Interestingly, his offensive rebounding percentage *was* highest in his rookie year, so there might actually be some truth to that anecdote.

Who knows though.

[rtiff68]

If anyone cares, my criteria isn’t exactly scientific or even what I’d consider balanced. I tried to factor in titles, individual dominance (MVP’s, statistical accolades), and longevity (All Time leading records). I didn’t give a ton of weight to All Star and All NBA selections, TBH.

Kareem I have first because he’s the All Time leading scorer, 3rd All Time in rebounds, 3rd All Time in blocked shots, 6 titles, 6 MVP’s, 2 FMVP’s...

Jordan is second with 6 titles, 6 FMVP’s, 5 MVP’s, 10 scoring titles, a DPOY, 4th All Time in points...

Russell is third because he has 11 titles, 5 MVP’s, 2nd All Time in rebounds...

Wilt is a bit of an outlier, but he gets more brownie points due to his otherworldly stats. He won 2 titles, 4 MVP’s, 1 FMVP, 7 scoring titles, 1 assist title, 11 rebounding titles, 1st All Time in rebounds, and then of course there’s the record setting 100 point game and a plethora of other ridiculous statistical records...

Magic won 5 titles, 3 MVP’s, 3 FMVP’s, 4 assists titles, 5th All Time in assists...

Timmy won 5 titles, 3 FMVP’s, 2 MVP’s, 5th All Time in blocked shots, 6th All Time in rebounds...

Lebron won 3 titles, 3 FMVP’s, 4 MVP’s, 1 scoring title, 7th All Time in points... he’s the only guy on the list whose place isn’t set TBH, as he can still move up the list.

Kobe won 5 titles, 2 FMVP’s, 1 MVP, 2 scoring titles, 3rd All Time in points, 1 Academy Award

Bird won 3 titles, 2 FMVP’s, 3 MVP’s... I have him lower than most because he’s not in the top 25 All Time for points, rebounds, or assists. And I know he got hurt and all that, but this isn’t “what if...?”.

Shaq won 4 titles, 3 FMVP’s, 1 MVP, 2 scoring titles, 8th All Time in points, 14th All Time in rebounds, 8th All Time in blocked shots... TBH I might switch Bird and Shaq...

It's interesting that you listed the titles for each player because, In a nutshell, the reason I value peak more than longevity is because it ultimately leads to a greater chance at winning titles.

Generically speaking, being good enough to be the most important player on a title team is exponentially more rare than being the 2nd most important, 3rd most important, etc. Case in point: guys like Tony Parker and Pau Gasol's careers are elevated by the fact that they each won multiple titles, but there's WAY more guys that could play second fiddle to guys like Kobe or Duncan than guys who could actually be Kobe or Duncan.

Both TMac and Joe Johnson are 7 time All Stars. JJ has had fantastic longevity, TMac didn't at all; that said, at his peak, TMac was in the conversation for "best player in the game." He never was, but he was in the conversation-- JJ wasn't ever close.

I'd rather have 5 years of prime Aaron Rodgers than 15 years of Matthew Stafford. I'll take a guy I can build a championship roster around for 3-5 years over a "star" who can't be that guy (Pierce, Kidd, Wilkins, etc.) for 10-15 years.

The former gives me the better odds of winning the most titles (despite the smaller window) because those guys are so exceedingly rare.

I get that, I just don’t rate guys on potential, just what they actually accomplished. Certain players clearly had greater peaks than others, there’s no denying that, but I personally don’t think it’s fair to say “I rate so-and-so higher than this guy because he’d give you a better window for winning titles”. I made my list as accomplishment driven as possible, and tried my best to avoid “what if?” scenarios, the eye test, or subjective elements like skill sets.

But these types of lists are all subjective either way, so IMO there’s really no wrong list. Like you said in this thread, we all seem to have some assortment of the same players in our top 10.

The last part is 100% true-- it's all subjective. One point of clarification on my opinion: output/accomplishments absolutely matter, and I never meant to imply otherwise.

When weighing peak vs. longevity, my (call it homerish if you want ) point is this: I already have Curry as the 2nd best PG of all time behind Magic. He was the best player on one title team, arguably the best on a 2nd (I feel he's still the Warriors' best player), won 2 MVPs (one of which came during one of the greatest statistical seasons in NBA history), and has the 73 win regular season and 16-1 playoff season under his belt.

That peak, which has only spanned 4+ years, already places him above the likes of Stockton, Kidd, Nash, any-PG-not-named-Magic, in my opinion.

[LNS]

Well I think Curry’s resume is impressive either way. 2 titles, 2 MVP’s, 1 scoring title.... and he has the potential to add more titles to his ledger, maybe some FMVP’s, and by the time he retires I’m positive he’ll crack the top 10 in All Time points, and maybe the top 15-20 in All Time assists... so there’s a lot of room for him to move up the rankings. And there really isn’t another PG outside of Magic that I can think of that has 2+ titles and 2+ MVP’s, so it’s not homer at all to have him as the 2nd best PG of All Time IMO.

Curry was my first pick in that terrible All Time draft we did recently, so I respect what he brings to the table.

[rtiff68]

Well I think Curry’s resume is impressive either way. 2 titles, 2 MVP’s, 1 scoring title.... and he has the potential to add more titles to his ledger, maybe some FMVP’s, and by the time he retires I’m positive he’ll crack the top 10 in All Time points, and maybe the top 15-20 in All Time assists... so there’s a lot of room for him to move up the rankings. And there really isn’t another PG outside of Magic that I can think of that has 2+ titles and 2+ MVP’s, so it’s not homer at all to have him as the 2nd best PG of All Time IMO.

Curry was my first pick in that terrible All Time draft we did recently, so I respect what he brings to the table.

He's ideal in those types of scenarios (All Time Drafts) because he's so outstanding off of the ball and he's not a "touch/shot demander."

We both just agreed that Magic is the top PG, but consider this: would you rather have Curry/Jordan or Magic/Jordan? Curry/LeBron or Magic/LeBron? In the case of KAJ you pretty much have to say Magic because of all the non-hypothetical success they had together, but when building a team or pairing superstars I feel that Curry is almost always the better fit than Magic because he has so much impact without the ball (which allows someone else to dominate it).