2015 Anger General Greatest post-merger Players of All Time #24

[Robceltsfan]

Gervin over Nique is a very easy choice for me.

Please, explain. I see them as virtual equals AT BEST for Gervin, but I'm open to some convincing.

Efficiency.

Nique is a career 21.6 PER......Gervin 21.4.

[Havlicekstealsit]

Gervin over Nique is a very easy choice for me.

Please, explain. I see them as virtual equals AT BEST for Gervin, but I'm open to some convincing.

Efficiency.

You can also argue Gervin went further in the playoffs than Nique ever could. He came one game from reaching the '79 Finals. They did blow a 3-1 lead though. Nique was a master of 1st rounds & semis - the CP58 of his time. At least Gervin reached multiple conference Finals.


I'll vote for McHale here, however.

[americaninfidel]

McHale.

[Robceltsfan]

Please, explain. I see them as virtual equals AT BEST for Gervin, but I'm open to some convincing.

Efficiency.

You can also argue Gervin went further in the playoffs than Nique ever could. He came one game from reaching the '79 Finals. They did blow a 3-1 lead though. Nique was a master of 1st rounds & semis - the CP58 of his time. At least Gervin reached multiple conference Finals.


I'll vote for McHale here, however.

Gervin won 3 playoff series....total. And he was bounced in the first round in 5 of 8 playoff appearances.

You only needed one series win to make the Conf. Finals back then...

[Bush4Ever]

The fact that McHale was a dominant offense force and Parish was a pretty good offensive player.

Then again, Parish was a fairly dominant rebounder, and McHale was a fairly modest one for a big. In 1989, Parish grabbed more than 4 rebounds a game more than McHale. That is a gigantic difference. Parish has top 10 rebounding percentages up to wazoo, McHale has none. It is certainly a bigger relative difference than their scoring differences, although yes, scoring should be weighted greater as an element in and of itself.

A quick eyeballing of the advanced analytics indicates to me that outside of McHale's big 1987 season, they were very close in overall value (it is quick though, maybe someone can take a deep dive into it).

I'm not really saying that Parish is better than McHale, or even that they are equal. But maybe we are overestimating the degree of difference of McHale vs. Parish.

[elmouse03]

McHale

[Y2K]

Efficiency.

You can also argue Gervin went further in the playoffs than Nique ever could. He came one game from reaching the '79 Finals. They did blow a 3-1 lead though. Nique was a master of 1st rounds & semis - the CP58 of his time. At least Gervin reached multiple conference Finals.


I'll vote for McHale here, however.

Gervin won 3 playoff series....total.

Rob, that's a silly argument for this situation because it disregards the fact that Gervin led his team to a first round bye FIVE times. While your point not being totally irrelevant, it's an unjust to not factor in the first round byes.

[elmouse03]

Who was the better defender between Parish and McHale?

[Robceltsfan]

You can also argue Gervin went further in the playoffs than Nique ever could. He came one game from reaching the '79 Finals. They did blow a 3-1 lead though. Nique was a master of 1st rounds & semis - the CP58 of his time. At least Gervin reached multiple conference Finals.


I'll vote for McHale here, however.

Gervin won 3 playoff series....total.

Rob, that's a silly argument for this situation because it disregards the fact that Gervin led his team to a first round bye FIVE times. While your point not being totally irrelevant, it's an unjust to not factor in the first round byes.

Gervin led his team to seasons of 53, 52 & 52 wins at their best. Nique led his team to seasons of 57, 52, 50 and 50 wins at their best.

It's equally silly to give Gervin credit for something that wasn't even possible for Nique to acheive.

[Robceltsfan]

Who was the better defender between Parish and McHale?

McHale was the better defender, but Parish was no slouch either.

[Y2K]

The fact that McHale was a dominant offense force and Parish was a pretty good offensive player.

Then again, Parish was a fairly dominant rebounder, and McHale was a fairly modest one for a big. In 1989, Parish grabbed more than 4 rebounds a game more than McHale. That is a gigantic difference. Parish has top 10 rebounding percentages up to wazoo, McHale has none. It is certainly a bigger relative difference than their scoring differences, although yes, scoring should be weighted greater as an element in and of itself.

A quick eyeballing of the advanced analytics indicates to me that outside of McHale's big 1987 season, they were very close in overall value (it is quick though, maybe someone can take a deep dive into it).

I'm not really saying that Parish is better than McHale, or even that they are equal. But maybe we are overestimating the degree of difference of McHale vs. Parish.

What would you value most:

The better rebounder

OR

The dominant low post scorer who can be the central focus of an offense

[Bush4Ever]

Who was the better defender between Parish and McHale?

McHale won more "awards", but the raw statistics and advanced analytics aren't radically different IIRC and in his various books, Bird seems to talk up Parish's defense a little bit more than McHales.

Given what I know, I would say "essentially equivalent" and not really worth kicking a fuss over one way or the other.

[Robceltsfan]

As far as the offense goes, Bird was the main factor in marginalizing the difference (statistically) between Parish and McHale. Parish was never a viable #1 scoring option. McHale was more than viable as a #1 option....he just happened to play with an even better #1 option who took the majority of the scoring opportunities in that offense.

[Robceltsfan]

Who was the better defender between Parish and McHale?

McHale won more "awards", but the raw statistics and advanced analytics aren't radically different IIRC and in his various books, Bird seems to talk up Parish's defense a little bit more than McHales.

Given what I know, I would say "essentially equivalent" and not really worth kicking a fuss over one way or the other.

The advanced metrics in this case give a large enough value to their rebounding difference to make them look like equals. McHale was the better defender.

[Y2K]

Gervin won 3 playoff series....total.

Rob, that's a silly argument for this situation because it disregards the fact that Gervin led his team to a first round bye FIVE times. While your point not being totally irrelevant, it's an unjust to not factor in the first round byes.

Gervin led his team to seasons of 53, 52 & 52 wins at their best. Nique led his team to seasons of 57, 52, 50 and 50 wins at their best.

It's equally silly to give Gervin credit for something that wasn't even possible for Nique to acheive.

You're doing the same thing by singling out his 3 playoff series win total. That's why I don't agree with this view in this instance.

[Bush4Ever]

What would you value most:

The better rebounder

OR

The dominant low post scorer who can be the central focus of an offense

It depends on the contributions in the other area(s) as well, and what the magnitudes of the differences are (i.e.-not just "better" but by how much).

The question is "McHale's combination of scoring/rebounding vs. Parish's combination of scoring and rebounding".

Parish completely crushes McHale rebounding-wise, and while McHale is better on the more important aspect, it might not be so overwhelmingly better to compensate for the monster rebounding difference (which is very important since both were bigs).

[Bush4Ever]

As far as the offense goes, Bird was the main factor in marginalizing the difference (statistically) between Parish and McHale. Parish was never a viable #1 scoring option. McHale was more than viable as a #1 option....he just happened to play with an even better #1 option who took the majority of the scoring opportunities in that offense.

I agree that McHale was a more textbook number one option. Again, I'm not at all arguing Parish was a better or even equal offensive player to McHale. I'm arguing that our assessments of the relative differences involved might be off-kilter somewhat, and maybe our "weighting system" as well.

I'm not at all understanding the 1989 perspective. To me, that is fairly strong evidence that Bird depressed Parish's statistics way more than McHale's.

1988 McHale: 14.2 shots per game, 22.6 points on 60 percent shooting.
1989 McHale: 15.5 shots per game, 22.5 points on 55 percent shooting.

1988 Parish: 10.1 shots per game, 14.3 points on 59 percent shooting.
1989 Parish: 14.2 shots per game, 18.6 points on 57 percent shooting.

Yes, in different roles. But with a fairly similar number of shots, and remember Parish was 35 I think at the time.

[Robceltsfan]

As far as the offense goes, Bird was the main factor in marginalizing the difference (statistically) between Parish and McHale. Parish was never a viable #1 scoring option. McHale was more than viable as a #1 option....he just happened to play with an even better #1 option who took the majority of the scoring opportunities in that offense.

I agree that McHale was a more textbook number one option. Again, I'm not at all arguing Parish was a better or even equal offensive player to McHale. I'm arguing that our assessments of the relative differences involved might be off-kilter somewhat, and maybe our "weighting system" as well.

I'm not at all understanding the 1989 perspective. To me, that is fairly strong evidence that Bird depressed Parish's statistics way more than McHale's.

1988 McHale: 14.2 shots per game, 22.6 points on 60 percent shooting.
1989 McHale: 15.5 shots per game, 22.5 points on 55 percent shooting.

1988 Parish: 10.1 shots per game, 14.3 points on 59 percent shooting.
1989 Parish: 14.2 shots per game, 18.6 points on 57 percent shooting.

Yes, in different roles. But with a fairly similar number of shots, and remember Parish was 35 I think at the time.

Small-ish sample sets of data. Reggie Lewis arriving in the starting lineup skews and real comparison of when Bird went down. If anything, all it proves is that, with Bird out, the Celtics chose to rely more heavily on the post and that up-ticked Parish's looks.

No doubt about it though....that was a really great year for Parish.

[Havlicekstealsit]

"In one of his first practices with the Bulls, Parish botched one of the plays and was amused to find Jordan jawing at him just inches from his face.

“I told him, ‘I’m not as enamored with you as these other guys. I’ve got some rings too,’ ” Parish recalled. “At that point he told me, ‘I’m going to kick your ass.’ I took one step closer and said, ‘No, you really aren’t.’ After that he didn’t bother me.”

[Robceltsfan]

"In one of his first practices with the Bulls, Parish botched one of the plays and was amused to find Jordan jawing at him just inches from his face.

“I told him, ‘I’m not as enamored with you as these other guys. I’ve got some rings too,’ ” Parish recalled. “At that point he told me, ‘I’m going to kick your ass.’ I took one step closer and said, ‘No, you really aren’t.’ After that he didn’t bother me.”

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