wailuaFC wrote:Westbrook is so far ahead of iverson defensively that the comparison holds no water
I've been told by some prominent posters here, that defense for a point guard is overrated. But sure i'll give you that. Westbrook is a much better defender(except when going against the great pg's).
It's not just being a good defender for the PG position, it's having the size to be able to effectively switch onto swings if need be. Iverson and Nash were great basketball players, but they were absolute holes on one end of the floor; Westbrook, by comparison, is versatile, switchable positive on that end (he's not an amazing defender by any stretch, but he is very solid and versatile).
He's a gambler on defense who finds himself out of position constantly. The warriors(and curry specifically) exposed this problem routinely last year. He leaves his man on defense a lot and lingers in the paint, which is also why he gets a lot of rebounds.
And i'll repeat, anytime he goes against the great pg's in this league, he gets torched consistently.
Last edited by 876Stephen on Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
876Stephen wrote:
This isn't pound for pound. Im straight up saying that Iverson is just as good if not better than Westbrook is right now.
That's nonsense. Sorry.
It's not all. Name one thing Westbook is better at than Iverson besides superior defense?
He's just as efficient offensively, is a hugely better defender, a better rebounder and never needs hidden because of his stature. Iverson, as a SG in a PG's body had to be paired with another big guard at all times. No such issues with Westbrook. Iverson was a ton of fun to watch but milked one good playoff run where he was often carried and against pretty awful competition into becoming very overrated.
It's not all. Name one thing Westbook is better at than Iverson besides superior defense?
He's just as efficient offensively, is a hugely better defender, a better rebounder and never needs hidden because of his stature. Iverson, as a SG in a PG's body had to be paired with another big guard at all times. No such issues with Westbrook. Iverson was a ton of fun to watch but milked one good playoff run where he was often carried and against pretty awful competition into becoming very overrated.
Just as efficient? Neither are efficient players by any stretch. If were going by pure volume scoring. Also keep in mind the teams Westbrook has had. There is zero reason for him to such an inefficient player with the players he has had around him. With Iverson it was totally different. He was playing with trash players in philly.
Is it a coincidence that Iverson had his two best shooting seasons since his second year in the league in Denver? The first time he played with legitimate teammates who could take the pressure off him offensively causes his efficiency to rise? He shot around 46% in Denver, which would have been Westbrook's career high by far.
876Stephen wrote:
I've been told by some prominent posters here, that defense for a point guard is overrated. But sure i'll give you that. Westbrook is a much better defender(except when going against the great pg's).
It's not just being a good defender for the PG position, it's having the size to be able to effectively switch onto swings if need be. Iverson and Nash were great basketball players, but they were absolute holes on one end of the floor; Westbrook, by comparison, is versatile, switchable positive on that end (he's not an amazing defender by any stretch, but he is very solid and versatile).
He's a gambler on defense who finds himself out of position constantly. The warriors(and curry specifically) exposed this problem routinely last year. He leaves his man on defense a lot and lingers in the paint, which is also why he gets a lot of rebounds.
And i'll repeat, anytime he goes against the great pg's in this league, he gets torched consistently.
Definitely not seeing this getting torched constantly vs elite pgs, sure Paul and curry shot a lot better then him but that's to be expected, he absolutely destroyed wall and lillard and sans his fg%, does just fine vs Paul and curry
876Stephen wrote:Im just struggling to understand it. The season Westbrook just had was the best season of his career by far.
Iverson had 3 or 4 seasons in philly that were just as good if not better. And he was playign with absolute garbage philly compared to the thunder.
Here's another number for you to consider:
In his 14 year career, Iverson never averaged 8apg in a single season, and his career average was 6.2apg. In his 7 year career, Westbrook has averaged over 8apg 3 times, and a 4th season where he averaged 7.4apg...
...and that's not even taking into consideration Westbrook's rebounding advantage (and the aforementioned defensive advantage).
Iverson was an explosive scorer, and was the quickest player with the ball in his hands that I've ever seen, but Westbrook is definitely a more well-rounded player.
876Stephen wrote:
It's not all. Name one thing Westbook is better at than Iverson besides superior defense?
He's just as efficient offensively, is a hugely better defender, a better rebounder and never needs hidden because of his stature. Iverson, as a SG in a PG's body had to be paired with another big guard at all times. No such issues with Westbrook. Iverson was a ton of fun to watch but milked one good playoff run where he was often carried and against pretty awful competition into becoming very overrated.
Just as efficient? Neither are efficient players by any stretch. If were going by pure volume scoring. Also keep in mind the teams Westbrook has had. There is zero reason for him to such an inefficient player with the players he has had around him. With Iverson it was totally different. He was playing with trash players in philly.
Is it a coincidence that Iverson had his two best shooting seasons since his second year in the league in Denver? The first time he played with legitimate teammates who could take the pressure off him offensively causes his efficiency to rise? He shot around 46% in Denver, which would have been Westbrook's career high by far.
Cherry picking is nothing but an excuse to cover a bias. Everyone knows your anti Westbrook stance. We get it.
Iverson in a very weak east through much of his tenure there was busy losing a lot of games.
I'll reverse your question. What did Iverson do better than Westbrook? I don't have the data in front of me, but what is there respective total shooting % stats? That could be the only thing because outside of that, Westbrook trumps him in every facet of the game.
876Stephen wrote:Im just struggling to understand it. The season Westbrook just had was the best season of his career by far.
Iverson had 3 or 4 seasons in philly that were just as good if not better. And he was playign with absolute garbage philly compared to the thunder.
Here's another number for you to consider:
In his 14 year career, Iverson never averaged 8apg in a single season, and his career average was 6.2apg. In his 7 year career, Westbrook has averaged over 8apg 3 times, and a 4th season where he averaged 7.4apg...
...and that's not even taking into consideration Westbrook's rebounding advantage (and the aforementioned defensive advantage).
Iverson was an explosive scorer, and was the quickest player with the ball in his hands that I've ever seen, but Westbrook is definitely a more well-rounded player.
No Iverson never averaged 8 assists in a season. But he's averaged 7.5, 7.9, 7.4, 7.2, 7.1 etc. Lets not make it out like Westbrook is that much better of a playmaker than Iverson was.
And as crazy os usage rate's as Iverson has had(out of necessity, not choice), none were as high as Westbrook's usage rate last year which was an insane 38.4.
vcsgrizzfan wrote:
He's just as efficient offensively, is a hugely better defender, a better rebounder and never needs hidden because of his stature. Iverson, as a SG in a PG's body had to be paired with another big guard at all times. No such issues with Westbrook. Iverson was a ton of fun to watch but milked one good playoff run where he was often carried and against pretty awful competition into becoming very overrated.
Just as efficient? Neither are efficient players by any stretch. If were going by pure volume scoring. Also keep in mind the teams Westbrook has had. There is zero reason for him to such an inefficient player with the players he has had around him. With Iverson it was totally different. He was playing with trash players in philly.
Is it a coincidence that Iverson had his two best shooting seasons since his second year in the league in Denver? The first time he played with legitimate teammates who could take the pressure off him offensively causes his efficiency to rise? He shot around 46% in Denver, which would have been Westbrook's career high by far.
Cherry picking is nothing but an excuse to cover a bias. Everyone knows your anti Westbrook stance. We get it.
Iverson in a very weak east through much of his tenure there was busy losing a lot of games.
I'll reverse your question. What did Iverson do better than Westbrook? I don't have the data in front of me, but what is there respective total shooting % stats? That could be the only thing because outside of that, Westbrook trumps him in every facet of the game.
Playing on a very weak, offensively inept team and organization in philly. Westbrook situational advantage is soo much greater than Iverson. He's been placed into a great situation right from the get go, with elite offensive teammates which has made his job as a player much easier and yet Iverson is just as efficient an offensive player.
876Stephen wrote:Im just struggling to understand it. The season Westbrook just had was the best season of his career by far.
Iverson had 3 or 4 seasons in philly that were just as good if not better. And he was playign with absolute garbage philly compared to the thunder.
Here's another number for you to consider:
In his 14 year career, Iverson never averaged 8apg in a single season, and his career average was 6.2apg. In his 7 year career, Westbrook has averaged over 8apg 3 times, and a 4th season where he averaged 7.4apg...
...and that's not even taking into consideration Westbrook's rebounding advantage (and the aforementioned defensive advantage).
Iverson was an explosive scorer, and was the quickest player with the ball in his hands that I've ever seen, but Westbrook is definitely a more well-rounded player.
No Iverson never averaged 8 assists in a season. But he's averaged 7.5, 7.9, 7.4, 7.2, 7.1 etc. Lets not make it out like Westbrook is that much better of a playmaker than Iverson was.
And as crazy os usage rate's as Iverson has had(out of necessity, not choice), none were as high as Westbrook's usage rate last year which was an insane 38.4.
Advanced statistics then?
In twice as many seasons (as of now), Iverson had 1 more season in double-digit Win Shares (3) than Wesbrook (2) currently has. Their career TS% are actually pretty close, with Westbrook having the slight advantage...
...which is bad news for Iverson, because Westbrook is a little or a lot better at everything else.
And i'm sorry. How important is Westbrook's great defense, when the thunder defense was garbage last year.
Again, i was told by pretty much everyone that rebounding and defense for point guards doesn't matter much, if at all which i sort of agree with now, especially after watching the warriors the past couple of seasons.
You take that away, there shooting percentages, turnovers rates, volume scoring, playmaking etc are all equal.
The notion that Westbrook is clearly superior isn't rooted in reality.
876Stephen wrote:
Just as efficient? Neither are efficient players by any stretch. If were going by pure volume scoring. Also keep in mind the teams Westbrook has had. There is zero reason for him to such an inefficient player with the players he has had around him. With Iverson it was totally different. He was playing with trash players in philly.
Is it a coincidence that Iverson had his two best shooting seasons since his second year in the league in Denver? The first time he played with legitimate teammates who could take the pressure off him offensively causes his efficiency to rise? He shot around 46% in Denver, which would have been Westbrook's career high by far.
Cherry picking is nothing but an excuse to cover a bias. Everyone knows your anti Westbrook stance. We get it.
Iverson in a very weak east through much of his tenure there was busy losing a lot of games.
I'll reverse your question. What did Iverson do better than Westbrook? I don't have the data in front of me, but what is there respective total shooting % stats? That could be the only thing because outside of that, Westbrook trumps him in every facet of the game.
Playing on a very weak, offensively inept team and organization in philly. Westbrook situational advantage is soo much greater than Iverson. He's been placed into a great situation right from the get go, with elite offensive teammates which has made his job as a player much easier and yet Iverson is just as efficient an offensive player.
Iverson wasn't playing the murderers' row that is the west. He was playing patsies and still wasn't winning many games. He had one good playoff run in his entire career and people have overrated him ever since. And they seriously overestimate how good he was in that one playoff run to boot.
876Stephen wrote:And i'm sorry. How important is Westbrook's great defense, when the thunder defense was garbage last year.
Again, i was told by pretty much everyone that rebounding and defense for point guards doesn't matter much, if at all which i sort of agree with now, especially after watching the warriors the past couple of seasons.
You take that away, there shooting percentages, turnovers rates, volume scoring, playmaking etc are all equal.
The notion that Westbrook is clearly superior isn't rooted in reality.
Just out of curiosity, where do you rank Westbrook amongst current players? Giving a range is obviously ok...
rtiff68 wrote:
Here's another number for you to consider:
In his 14 year career, Iverson never averaged 8apg in a single season, and his career average was 6.2apg. In his 7 year career, Westbrook has averaged over 8apg 3 times, and a 4th season where he averaged 7.4apg...
...and that's not even taking into consideration Westbrook's rebounding advantage (and the aforementioned defensive advantage).
Iverson was an explosive scorer, and was the quickest player with the ball in his hands that I've ever seen, but Westbrook is definitely a more well-rounded player.
No Iverson never averaged 8 assists in a season. But he's averaged 7.5, 7.9, 7.4, 7.2, 7.1 etc. Lets not make it out like Westbrook is that much better of a playmaker than Iverson was.
And as crazy os usage rate's as Iverson has had(out of necessity, not choice), none were as high as Westbrook's usage rate last year which was an insane 38.4.
Advanced statistics then?
In twice as many seasons (as of now), Iverson had 1 more season in double-digit Win Shares (3) than Wesbrook (2) currently has. Their career TS% are actually pretty close, with Westbrook having the slight advantage...
...which is bad news for Iverson, because Westbrook is a little or a lot better at everything else.
Look at the players Westbrook was brough into the league playing with? The fact that Iverson and Westbrook are as close as they are is actually and indictment of Westbrook not Iverson. Durant, Harden, Ibaka, Kanter etc. Elite offensive weapons all over the place his entire career, in an offense that caters to his skill set perfectly. Isolation clearouts where he can go to the basket or create for others, the exact same basic offense Iverson played with. Only Iverson was doing it with studs like Eric Mckie, George Lynch and Theo ratliff.
876Stephen wrote:And i'm sorry. How important is Westbrook's great defense, when the thunder defense was garbage last year.
Again, i was told by pretty much everyone that rebounding and defense for point guards doesn't matter much, if at all which i sort of agree with now, especially after watching the warriors the past couple of seasons.
You take that away, there shooting percentages, turnovers rates, volume scoring, playmaking etc are all equal.
The notion that Westbrook is clearly superior isn't rooted in reality.
Just out of curiosity, where do you rank Westbrook amongst current players? Giving a range is obviously ok...
vcsgrizzfan wrote:
Cherry picking is nothing but an excuse to cover a bias. Everyone knows your anti Westbrook stance. We get it.
Iverson in a very weak east through much of his tenure there was busy losing a lot of games.
I'll reverse your question. What did Iverson do better than Westbrook? I don't have the data in front of me, but what is there respective total shooting % stats? That could be the only thing because outside of that, Westbrook trumps him in every facet of the game.
Playing on a very weak, offensively inept team and organization in philly. Westbrook situational advantage is soo much greater than Iverson. He's been placed into a great situation right from the get go, with elite offensive teammates which has made his job as a player much easier and yet Iverson is just as efficient an offensive player.
Iverson wasn't playing the murderers' row that is the west. He was playing patsies and still wasn't winning many games. He had one good playoff run in his entire career and people have overrated him ever since. And they seriously overestimate how good he was in that one playoff run to boot.
Fun. Sure. But far more flawed than Westbrook.
The east was weak, we get it. Even still, it's hard to win games with Old Dikembe, Aaron Mckie or out of shape, unmotivated Chris Webber as your teammates.
Im not even saying Iverson was this great player but neither is westbrook.
876Stephen wrote:
No Iverson never averaged 8 assists in a season. But he's averaged 7.5, 7.9, 7.4, 7.2, 7.1 etc. Lets not make it out like Westbrook is that much better of a playmaker than Iverson was.
And as crazy os usage rate's as Iverson has had(out of necessity, not choice), none were as high as Westbrook's usage rate last year which was an insane 38.4.
Advanced statistics then?
In twice as many seasons (as of now), Iverson had 1 more season in double-digit Win Shares (3) than Wesbrook (2) currently has. Their career TS% are actually pretty close, with Westbrook having the slight advantage...
...which is bad news for Iverson, because Westbrook is a little or a lot better at everything else.
Look at the players Westbrook was brough into the league playing with? The fact that Iverson and Westbrook are as close as they are is actually and indictment of Westbrook not Iverson. Durant, Harden, Ibaka, Kanter etc. Elite offensive weapons all over the place his entire career, in an offense that caters to his skill set perfectly. Isolation clearouts where he can go to the basket or create for others, the exact same basic offense Iverson played with. Only Iverson was doing it with studs like Eric Mckie, George Lynch and Theo ratliff.
Like Grizz already pointed out, Westbrook has had better teams around him, but Iverson had the luxury of playing in the east-- the discrepancy between the conferences then was similar to what it is now.
...and since you brought Westbrook's insane usage percentage into play this past season while comparing assist totals, it should be mentioned that during the '01-'02 season Iverson had a USG% of 37.8, and he managed only 5.5apg against 4.0 TOs (as compared to Westbrook's 38.4 USG% this past season-- largely w/o Durant-- where he averaged 8.6apg against 4.4 TOs).
In twice as many seasons (as of now), Iverson had 1 more season in double-digit Win Shares (3) than Wesbrook (2) currently has. Their career TS% are actually pretty close, with Westbrook having the slight advantage...
...which is bad news for Iverson, because Westbrook is a little or a lot better at everything else.
Look at the players Westbrook was brough into the league playing with? The fact that Iverson and Westbrook are as close as they are is actually and indictment of Westbrook not Iverson. Durant, Harden, Ibaka, Kanter etc. Elite offensive weapons all over the place his entire career, in an offense that caters to his skill set perfectly. Isolation clearouts where he can go to the basket or create for others, the exact same basic offense Iverson played with. Only Iverson was doing it with studs like Eric Mckie, George Lynch and Theo ratliff.
Like Grizz already pointed out, Westbrook has had better teams around him, but Iverson had the luxury of playing in the east-- the discrepancy between the conferences then was similar to what it is now.
...and since you brought Westbrook's insane usage percentage into play this past season while comparing assist totals, it should be mentioned that during the '01-'02 season Iverson had a USG% of 37.8, and he managed only 5.5apg against 4.0 TOs (as compared to Westbrook's 38.4 USG% this past season-- largely w/o Durant-- where he averaged 8.6apg against 4.4 TOs).
I'm only phone now, so my responses won't be as long winded but when you combine sky high usage rate with good offensive players around your assist numbers should be high. Assists are a two way street. You can create as best you can but if your teammates can't finish plays then your screwed. That why it's always easier to effect games with scoring as opposed to passing. It's why a player like curry is way more valuable than a guy like Chris Paul.
Westbrook seems like he does everything better, maybe not by a whole lot but just enough where it makes a difference a lot in the grand scheme of things and that's just offense.
