"How in the world could Curry be top 5? He's not even better than Durant"

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Re: "How in the world could Curry be top 5? He's not even better than Durant"

Post by _Vcsgrizzfan_ »

xer0 wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:07 pm I'll take Wilt anyday, anytime over Russell and I have a far better chance of winning since his offensive gap over Russell and anyone else was far, far bigger than any marginal defensive impact russell had. He simply didnt have the level of ability wilt had. That argument you're making sounds Alot like LeBron.

If you put wilt on those Celtic teams over Russell, they win the title every year.
Wilt played with some great teams and didn't win jack shit trying to be the go to guy. That includes Russell's final season, when he was on close to his last legs, but beat the heavily favored Lakers who had Wilt, Jerry West and Elgin Baylor in 1969. WIlt won two rings in his career, both as a complimentary player playing a role closer to what Russell played on the Celtics as opposed to just piling up stats.

Russell's defensive impact is beyond legendary. In his 13 seasons with the Celtics, they had the top defensive rating in the NBA 12 times, and were second the other time. No player in NBA history has remotely come close to having that level of influence defensively. They were brutal defensively before he got there, and immediately after he left. Those are cold hard facts.

Funny that you say that if the Celts had Wilt, they would have won every year. Well, the Celtics won 11 titles in Russell's 13 seasons, and one of the one's they didn't win was the year Russell got hurt in the finals, missed a game and was largely ineffective compared to his normal self. The other, was his first season as player/coach, which makes some sense too if you think that through. Meanwhile, Wilt has excuses and no rings when he tried to be central figure. He won his two rings imitating Russell's game.

Wilt played for a great Kansas college team and couldn't win a title. Russell played for USF, a program that was absolutely nothing before he got there and won two NCAA titles. Wilt again had beautiful stats at Kansas but no rings. Russell always got the hardware.
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Re: "How in the world could Curry be top 5? He's not even better than Durant"

Post by Bush4Ever. »

PhutureDynasty wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:22 pm The only season that is better than Wilt's 50 ppg season (which they robbed him of MVP because the other players were literally player hating') is Embiid's current season before he got injured. They will also rob Embiid of the MVP this season because of "MUH 65 GAMEZ!" rule.

Those are actual facts.
Followed closely by Moses Malone 1983 and 2000 Dikembe, right?
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Re: "How in the world could Curry be top 5? He's not even better than Durant"

Post by PhutureDynasty »

Bush4Ever. wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:24 pm
PhutureDynasty wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:22 pm The only season that is better than Wilt's 50 ppg season (which they robbed him of MVP because the other players were literally player hating') is Embiid's current season before he got injured. They will also rob Embiid of the MVP this season because of "MUH 65 GAMEZ!" rule.

Those are actual facts.
Followed closely by Moses Malone 1983 and 2000 Dikembe, right?
Absolutely!

Don't forget 2001 Allen Iverson.
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Re: "How in the world could Curry be top 5? He's not even better than Durant"

Post by PhutureDynasty »

In all seriousness though, it is a shame that Embiid went down.

He was having an absolutely historical scoring season by the metrics.

I think his points per minute was the highest ever recorded in the NBA.
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Re: "How in the world could Curry be top 5? He's not even better than Durant"

Post by _Vcsgrizzfan_ »

PhutureDynasty wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:31 pm In all seriousness though, it is a shame that Embiid went down.

He was having an absolutely historical scoring season by the metrics.

I think his points per minute was the highest ever recorded in the NBA.
We are blessed to be watching some absolutely incredible talent in the NBA these days. Jokic and Embiid at C are just incredible and that is just the beginning. The talent level right now is so far beyond anything in NBA history, it's crazy. Just enjoy....
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Re: "How in the world could Curry be top 5? He's not even better than Durant"

Post by Bush4Ever. »

Sorry, but this is Joker's time (still).

Joel can bend the knee and be a Duke in Joker's court though.
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Re: "How in the world could Curry be top 5? He's not even better than Durant"

Post by PhutureDynasty »

Bush4Ever. wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:40 pm Sorry, but this is Joker's time (still).

Joel can bend the knee and be a Duke in Joker's court though.
The only reason you would say that is blatant racism.
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Re: "How in the world could Curry be top 5? He's not even better than Durant"

Post by PhutureDynasty »

_Vcsgrizzfan_ wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:35 pm
PhutureDynasty wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:31 pm In all seriousness though, it is a shame that Embiid went down.

He was having an absolutely historical scoring season by the metrics.

I think his points per minute was the highest ever recorded in the NBA.
We are blessed to be watching some absolutely incredible talent in the NBA these days. Jokic and Embiid at C are just incredible and that is just the beginning. The talent level right now is so far beyond anything in NBA history, it's crazy. Just enjoy....
I agree about everything.

Wish we still had the like system...

*scratches neck*
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Re: "How in the world could Curry be top 5? He's not even better than Durant"

Post by Robceltsfan »

_Vcsgrizzfan_ wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:22 pm
xer0 wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:07 pm I'll take Wilt anyday, anytime over Russell and I have a far better chance of winning since his offensive gap over Russell and anyone else was far, far bigger than any marginal defensive impact russell had. He simply didnt have the level of ability wilt had. That argument you're making sounds Alot like LeBron.

If you put wilt on those Celtic teams over Russell, they win the title every year.
Wilt played with some great teams and didn't win jack shit trying to be the go to guy. That includes Russell's final season, when he was on close to his last legs, but beat the heavily favored Lakers who had Wilt, Jerry West and Elgin Baylor in 1969. WIlt won two rings in his career, both as a complimentary player playing a role closer to what Russell played on the Celtics as opposed to just piling up stats.

Russell's defensive impact is beyond legendary. In his 13 seasons with the Celtics, they had the top defensive rating in the NBA 12 times, and were second the other time. No player in NBA history has remotely come close to having that level of influence defensively. They were brutal defensively before he got there, and immediately after he left. Those are cold hard facts.

Funny that you say that if the Celts had Wilt, they would have won every year. Well, the Celtics won 11 titles in Russell's 13 seasons, and one of the one's they didn't win was the year Russell got hurt in the finals, missed a game and was largely ineffective compared to his normal self. The other, was his first season as player/coach, which makes some sense too if you think that through. Meanwhile, Wilt has excuses and no rings when he tried to be central figure. He won his two rings imitating Russell's game.

Wilt played for a great Kansas college team and couldn't win a title. Russell played for USF, a program that was absolutely nothing before he got there and won two NCAA titles. Wilt again had beautiful stats and Kansas but no rings. Russell always got the hardware.
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Re: "How in the world could Curry be top 5? He's not even better than Durant"

Post by PhutureDynasty »

Russell Stans are insufferable

They make fun of Kobe fans for throwing "MUH RANGZ" thinking in your face, and then turn around and say...

"Russell was a winner!"

"11 RANGZ!"

At least be consistent in your arguments, sheesh...

:)
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Re: "How in the world could Curry be top 5? He's not even better than Durant"

Post by thedangerouskitchen »

Bush4Ever. wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 1:24 am Curry's combined rebounds+assists per-possessions is HIGHER than Jordan's during his Chicago career.

"A bum outside of shooting"
-TDK

lol
Only an idiot believes Steph is a better Rebounder than was Jordan.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Scoring = Jordan huge edge
Rebounding = Jordan huge edge
Assists/Playmaking = Wash
Defense = Jordan MASSIVE edge
Awards/Accolades = Jordan MASSIVE edge

Go grab some bench, rookie.
"Today's NBA is soft, the Defense is weak, and the rules 'really' favor the Offense."

"Lebron doesn’t guard for a full game and our game plan was to get him to play defense and he left me open all game."
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Re: "How in the world could Curry be top 5? He's not even better than Durant"

Post by thedangerouskitchen »

_Vcsgrizzfan_ wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:02 pm
xer0 wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 10:14 am I have Wilt as the #1 player of all time simply based on the fact that he dominated his peers offensively and defensively better than anyone else in NBA history. Bill Russel isn't half the player wilt was and even he wouldve admitted that.
Exhibit A of a fan who looks at stats, but who doesn't understand hoops. Players and fans from back then knew who was better, and that was Russell. I judge better by how much you influence the win and loss columns. Nobody has come close to doing that the way Russell has. From high school to college to the NBA. Wilt cared enormously about his stats, and in the year when he led the league in assists, gave up easy buckets to try to get more dimes. Russell only cared about winning. Nothing else mattered. Jerry West who played with Wilt, wished he could have played with Russell instead. As he subtly tried to explain, you had to adjust your game to play with Wilt and have team success. Russell adjusted to his teammates and played to their strengths to help the team win. Pretty stats, Wilt. Want to win - Russell.
Says the guy who slurps LeBron's nuts.

:lol: :roll: :L
Last edited by thedangerouskitchen on Fri Feb 16, 2024 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Today's NBA is soft, the Defense is weak, and the rules 'really' favor the Offense."

"Lebron doesn’t guard for a full game and our game plan was to get him to play defense and he left me open all game."
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Re: "How in the world could Curry be top 5? He's not even better than Durant"

Post by Bush4Ever. »

thedangerouskitchen wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 2:28 pm
Only an idiot believes Steph is a better Rebounder than was Jordan.
I said combined assists+rebounds per-possession, retard.

It's a factual matter. It's objectively true.

Steph:
6.7 rebounds/100 possessions
9.1 assists/100 possessions
15.8 rebounds+assists/per 100 possessions

Jordan:
8.3 rebounds/100 possessions
7.1 assists/100 possessions
15.4 rebounds+assists/per 100 possessions

Per Basketball Reference.
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Re: "How in the world could Curry be top 5? He's not even better than Durant"

Post by Bush4Ever. »

The gap between Steph and Jordan on assists is *larger* than the gap between them on rebounding.

Yet TDK calls the former a wash and latter a gigantic advantage.

NPC TDK strikes again. lmao
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Re: "How in the world could Curry be top 5? He's not even better than Durant"

Post by thedangerouskitchen »

Bush4Ever. wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 2:41 pm
thedangerouskitchen wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 2:28 pm
Only an idiot believes Steph is a better Rebounder than was Jordan.
I said combined assists+rebounds per-possession, retard.

It's a factual matter. It's objectively true.

Steph:
6.7 rebounds/100 possessions
9.1 assists/100 possessions
15.8 rebounds+assists/per 100 possessions

Jordan:
8.3 rebounds/100 possessions
7.1 assists/100 possessions
15.4 rebounds+assists/per 100 possessions

Per Basketball Reference.
So you're saying Steph is not a better Rebounder, or is a better Rebounder? Which is it, bush-league... or are you just throwing out stats that mean nothing (ie; per 100) 'cause you got nothing better to do?

:lol: :roll: :L
"Today's NBA is soft, the Defense is weak, and the rules 'really' favor the Offense."

"Lebron doesn’t guard for a full game and our game plan was to get him to play defense and he left me open all game."
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Re: "How in the world could Curry be top 5? He's not even better than Durant"

Post by Bush4Ever. »

thedangerouskitchen wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 2:51 pm
So you're saying Steph is not a better Rebounder, or is a better Rebounder? Which is it, bush-league... or are you just throwing out stats that mean nothing (ie; per 100) 'cause you got nothing better to do?
He's a slightly worse rebounder, a meaningful better passer, and slightly better combined rebounding+passing.

It's not that complicated.

Scoring? They are equal because Jordan wins at volume, but Curry obliterates him in efficiency, while also scoring at elite rates.

Defense? Equal because Jordan was better, but about 80 percent of his guard competition wouldn't make the league today, so Steph being average today arguably indicates he would have been better against the competition that Jordan faced than Jordan was. In any case, not a huge difference taking era into account.

Winning? Steph has two titles with less supporting talent than ANY Jordan ring, and two that are about equal to the average talent of Jordan's six rings. Jordan has two more rings, but Steph has the two BEST rings. So again...basically a wash.

Jordan doesn't hold a relevant advantage in anything taking era into account, and even not taking era into account, is only better defensively.
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Re: "How in the world could Curry be top 5? He's not even better than Durant"

Post by Odogg »

I don’t even have Wilt top ten any more. How the fuck did he only get one lead dog ring? Sorry wilt you are in the 11-15 group now
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Re: "How in the world could Curry be top 5? He's not even better than Durant"

Post by thedangerouskitchen »

Bush4Ever. wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 2:43 pm The gap between Steph and Jordan on assists is *larger* than the gap between them on rebounding.

Yet TDK calls the former a wash and latter a gigantic advantage.

NPC TDK strikes again. lmao
Wrong...

Rebounds: Steph 4.7 vs. 6.2 for Jordan (MJ with a +1.5 advantage)
Assists: Steph 6.4 vs. 5.3 for Jordan (Steph with a +1.1 advantage)

And let's not forget Steph's career averages will decline as he continues playing in the twilight of his career.

:trumphuh:
"Today's NBA is soft, the Defense is weak, and the rules 'really' favor the Offense."

"Lebron doesn’t guard for a full game and our game plan was to get him to play defense and he left me open all game."
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Re: "How in the world could Curry be top 5? He's not even better than Durant"

Post by thedangerouskitchen »

Bush4Ever. wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 2:57 pm
thedangerouskitchen wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 2:51 pm
So you're saying Steph is not a better Rebounder, or is a better Rebounder? Which is it, bush-league... or are you just throwing out stats that mean nothing (ie; per 100) 'cause you got nothing better to do?
He's a slightly worse rebounder, a meaningful better passer, and slightly better combined rebounding+passing.

It's not that complicated.

Scoring? They are equal because Jordan wins at volume, but Curry obliterates him in efficiency, while also scoring at elite rates.

Defense? Equal because Jordan was better, but about 80 percent of his guard competition wouldn't make the league today, so Steph being average today arguably indicates he would have been better against the competition that Jordan faced than Jordan was. In any case, not a huge difference taking era into account.

Winning? Steph has two titles with less supporting talent than ANY Jordan ring, and two that are about equal to the average talent of Jordan's six rings. Jordan has two more rings, but Steph has the two BEST rings. So again...basically a wash.

Jordan doesn't hold a relevant advantage in anything taking era into account, and even not taking era into account, is only better defensively.
Artman, did you hack into bush's account????

:lol: :roll: :L
"Today's NBA is soft, the Defense is weak, and the rules 'really' favor the Offense."

"Lebron doesn’t guard for a full game and our game plan was to get him to play defense and he left me open all game."
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Re: "How in the world could Curry be top 5? He's not even better than Durant"

Post by Bush4Ever. »

thedangerouskitchen wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 3:02 pm
Wrong...

Rebounds: Steph 4.7 vs. 6.2 for Jordan (MJ with a +1.5 advantage)
Assists: Steph 6.4 vs. 5.3 for Jordan (Steph with a +1.1 advantage)

And let's not forget Steph's career averages will decline as he continues playing in the twilight of his career.

:trumphuh:
The first two points are confounded by pace, minutes, and overall possessions, dummy.

The last point is irrelevant because I took the averages of Bulls Jordan (930 games) vs. current Steph (932 games played)

The exact same stretch of games (game 1-game 930/932). Exact same quantity of possessions (to acquire assists/rebounds in the first place).

Steph wins. Barely, but he wins. Regardless you *certainly* can't say Jordan was a passing/rebounding God and Steph a bum, when Steph literally outperforms him lol lol lol
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