Wembanana drops 38 and 10 on 15-26 shooting

[thedangerouskitchen]

Grizz has had it out for TDK ever since I completely destroyed him in a debate (several years ago), when he claimed LeCommie was soley responsible for the Cavs' 21-win increase in 2009.

Grizz hasn't been the same since that massacre.

Dude. You were the one who made an ass of himself in that debate. And now you're lying about it and have been ever since. I made you and Stars look like a couple of dummies.

Your old age is clearly impacting your memory. You claimed LeCommie was "solely" responsible for the turnaround that year. That ALONE disqualifies you from winning the debate (as basketball is a team sport), however there are many other reasons why your assertion was/is foolish, and it was all highlighted in that thread... from the Cavs' much improved Defense that year (thanks to Varejao being healthy the entire season) to their elite 3-point shooting (thanks to Mo Williams), etc., etc.

It's okay to be wrong you know. Too bad you can't admit it when you are...

[vcsgrizzfan]

Grizz has had it out for TDK ever since I completely destroyed him in a debate (several years ago), when he claimed LeCommie was soley responsible for the Cavs' 21-win increase in 2009.

Grizz hasn't been the same since that massacre.

Dude. You were the one who made an ass of himself in that debate. And now you're lying about it and have been ever since. I made you and Stars look like a couple of dummies.

Your old age is clearly impacting your memory. You claimed LeCommie was "solely" responsible for the turnaround that year. That ALONE disqualifies you from winning the debate (as basketball is a team sport), however there are many other reasons why your assertion was/is foolish, and it was all highlighted in that thread... from the Cavs' much improved Defense that year (thanks to Varejao being healthy the entire season) to their elite 3-point shooting (thanks to Mo Williams), etc., etc.

It's okay to be wrong you know. Too bad you can't admit it when you are...

The first and most important lie in that post is that I NEVER said he was solely responsible for the 21 game turnaround. The second lie, and it came in that debate was the 21 game improvement itself. It wasn't really a 21 game improvement because the prior season, LeBron played 6 fewer games and they lost 5 of those six games. The improvement was really 16 games. And yes, he was the biggest reason for that improvement.

Dig up the thread and put it up TDK. I'll be waiting.

[Bush4Ever.]

The Cavs were better in their own right divorced from Lebron in 2009 vs. 2008, but still pretty miserable overall:

http://www.82games.com/0708/07CLE13D.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0809/08CLE9.HTM#onoff

Basically, going from a -8.9/100 possession to a -5.9/100 possessions. Interestingly, they bumped up offensively, but dropped defensively.

But if you look at the on-court numbers (Lebron on court)

It goes from +11.3 to +21, with much better offense and defense.

Which correlates with what backpicks and others have found regarding Lebron individually from 2008 to 2009, basically going from a borderline MVP player to all-time level play, in large part because of his defensive improvements. This was Lebron's first BIG season:



Obviously, no one single player is going to be solely responsible for anything in basketball, but the evidence as I read it aligns more with Lebron himself having a historic bump, and his teammates stacking a significantly smaller (but real) bump on top of that.

[thedangerouskitchen]

2008: 45 wins
2009: 66 wins

"That's not a 21-win improvement"

Signed,
Grizz



Also, had you said LeCommie was the "biggest reason" then there wouldn't have been a debate. Instead, you severely downplayed Andy's impact on Defense (and Ben Wallace's too), and pretty much laughed at the notion that Williams (and the team's) 3-point shooting had a huge impact, claiming instead that it was ALL because of LeCommie that Mo shot 43% from deep and the Cavs finished #2 overall that year.

You pretty much claimed LeCommie was Jesus Christ that year WHEN his numbers across the board were no different in 2009 than they were in 2008.

You got demolished. Deal with it.

[Robceltsfan]

2008: 45 wins
2009: 66 wins

"That's not a 21-win improvement"

Signed,
Grizz



Also, had you said LeCommie was the "biggest reason" then there wouldn't have been a debate. Instead, you severely downplayed Andy's impact on Defense (and Ben Wallace's too), and pretty much laughed at the notion that Williams (and the team's) 3-point shooting had a huge impact, claiming instead that it was ALL because of LeCommie that Mo shot 43% from deep and the Cavs finished #2 overall that year.

You pretty much claimed LeCommie was Jesus Christ that year WHEN his numbers across the board were no different in 2009 than they were in 2008.

You got demolished. Deal with it.

In 11 seasons without Lebron, Mo "1-time all-star" Williams shot 35.8% from 3.

In 2 seasons with Lebron.....he shot 43.2%.

Yes, that was ALL Lebron.


And his "numbers" were "no different" despite playing nearly 3 minutes less per game.

[thedangerouskitchen]

LeCommie's numbers were virtually identical across the board in 2008 / 2009... his improvement on Defense was brought about primarily because Varejao played the entire season and Ben Wallace played 56 games (vs. just 22 in 2008).

Was LeCommie the best player on the 09 Cavs? Absolutely. Did he also have significantly more help/production from his teammates in 09 (vs. 08)? Without question.

[thedangerouskitchen]

2008: 45 wins
2009: 66 wins

"That's not a 21-win improvement"

Signed,
Grizz



Also, had you said LeCommie was the "biggest reason" then there wouldn't have been a debate. Instead, you severely downplayed Andy's impact on Defense (and Ben Wallace's too), and pretty much laughed at the notion that Williams (and the team's) 3-point shooting had a huge impact, claiming instead that it was ALL because of LeCommie that Mo shot 43% from deep and the Cavs finished #2 overall that year.

You pretty much claimed LeCommie was Jesus Christ that year WHEN his numbers across the board were no different in 2009 than they were in 2008.

You got demolished. Deal with it.

In 11 seasons without Lebron, Mo "1-time all-star" Williams shot 35.8% from 3.

In 2 seasons with Lebron.....he shot 43.2%.

Yes, that was ALL Lebron.


And his "numbers" were "no different" despite playing nearly 3 minutes less per game.

... so LeCommie was taking the shots and Mo was getting credit for making them???

And FTR Williams shot 39% from deep the year prior in Milwaukee, so let's not pretend he was some scrub until teamming with LeCommie.

Furthermore, LeCommie's 3-point shooting went from .315% in 08 (withOut Mo) to .344% in 09 with Mo... but I suppose that was ALL because of LeCommie too, eh?

[Robceltsfan]

2008: 45 wins
2009: 66 wins

"That's not a 21-win improvement"

Signed,
Grizz



Also, had you said LeCommie was the "biggest reason" then there wouldn't have been a debate. Instead, you severely downplayed Andy's impact on Defense (and Ben Wallace's too), and pretty much laughed at the notion that Williams (and the team's) 3-point shooting had a huge impact, claiming instead that it was ALL because of LeCommie that Mo shot 43% from deep and the Cavs finished #2 overall that year.

You pretty much claimed LeCommie was Jesus Christ that year WHEN his numbers across the board were no different in 2009 than they were in 2008.

You got demolished. Deal with it.

In 11 seasons without Lebron, Mo "1-time all-star" Williams shot 35.8% from 3.

In 2 seasons with Lebron.....he shot 43.2%.

Yes, that was ALL Lebron.


And his "numbers" were "no different" despite playing nearly 3 minutes less per game.

... so LeCommie was taking the shots and Mo was getting credit for making them???

And FTR Williams shot 39% from deep the year prior in Milwaukee, so let's not pretend he was some scrub until teamming with LeCommie.

Furthermore, LeCommie's 3-point shooting went from .315% in 08 (withOut Mo) to .344% in 09 with Mo... but I suppose that was ALL because of LeCommie too, eh?

Lebron improved his 3-point shooting, and then basically shot that well or better for the rest of his career. (He's been a 35.2% shooter since that season)

Williams shot 35.7% in the years following his 2 seasons with Lebron....and shot 35.9% in the years prior to Lebron. You tell me which is more likely:

> Lebron facilitated MUCH easier looks for Mo Williams, increasing his efficiency from deep
> Mo Williams just happened to shoot great from 3 for the 2 seasons he played with Lebron, then coincidentally shot identically worse both before and after playing with him

[vcsgrizzfan]

2008: 45 wins
2009: 66 wins

"That's not a 21-win improvement"

Signed,
Grizz



Also, had you said LeCommie was the "biggest reason" then there wouldn't have been a debate. Instead, you severely downplayed Andy's impact on Defense (and Ben Wallace's too), and pretty much laughed at the notion that Williams (and the team's) 3-point shooting had a huge impact, claiming instead that it was ALL because of LeCommie that Mo shot 43% from deep and the Cavs finished #2 overall that year.

You pretty much claimed LeCommie was Jesus Christ that year WHEN his numbers across the board were no different in 2009 than they were in 2008.

You got demolished. Deal with it.

No Dude. You made an ass of yourself and continue to do so. Bush, in one post above pretty much encapsulated it.

What is hard to understand about the improvement. If LeBron misses 6 more games in the prior season and they lost them all, is the improvement really 21 games guy? For that to be the case, you would have to believe if LeBron had not missed the six additional games THAT THEY ALL LOST, that they would have still lost them all if he had played them. With LeBron playing in 2008, they were 45-30. LeBron missed 7 games. They lost every one. They were 45-30 when he played and 0-7 when he didn't. In 2009, he only missed one game (which they also lost by the way). To believe the improvement was "really" 21 games means you believe that if LeBron had not missed those 7 games, they still would have lost them all. That is just plain stupid.

[vcsgrizzfan]

2008: 45 wins
2009: 66 wins

"That's not a 21-win improvement"

Signed,
Grizz



Also, had you said LeCommie was the "biggest reason" then there wouldn't have been a debate. Instead, you severely downplayed Andy's impact on Defense (and Ben Wallace's too), and pretty much laughed at the notion that Williams (and the team's) 3-point shooting had a huge impact, claiming instead that it was ALL because of LeCommie that Mo shot 43% from deep and the Cavs finished #2 overall that year.

You pretty much claimed LeCommie was Jesus Christ that year WHEN his numbers across the board were no different in 2009 than they were in 2008.

You got demolished. Deal with it.

Dig up the thread liar. If you can find a shred of evidence that I said LeBron was "solely" responsible for the improvement, I will gladly admit my mistake. I know I didn't and I know you're full of shit.

[Uncontroversial]

why are we still talking about Lebron when Wemby is here and is already better at every facet of the game?

[thedangerouskitchen]

Grizz got demolished so now he's arguing that the Cavs' improvement was only 15 wins instead of 21.



Either way the SIGNIFICANT improvement of the Cavs in 2009 (vs. 2008) was due first and foremost to the significant improvement of LeCommie's teammates, and secondarily because of LeCommie.

Fact.

[vcsgrizzfan]

Grizz got demolished so now he's arguing that the Cavs' improvement was only 15 wins instead of 21.



Either way the SIGNIFICANT improvement of the Cavs in 2009 (vs. 2008) was due first and foremost to the significant improvement of LeCommie's teammates, and secondarily because of LeCommie.

Fact.

No, that is an opinion and definitely not a fact. And again, dig up the thread and let's go through and see who said what. I'll be waiting.

As far as the improvement is concerned. you are making progress. At least you are off the 21! Good job.

The most realistic measurement of the improvement would be 17. 45-30 implies a 60 percent win rate when LeBron played in 2008. Using that, if he had played 81 like he did in 2009, they would have won 4 more games in 2008 (3.6 rounded up). Realistically, the improvement is 16-18 games.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Grizz got demolished so now he's arguing that the Cavs' improvement was only 15 wins instead of 21.



Either way the SIGNIFICANT improvement of the Cavs in 2009 (vs. 2008) was due first and foremost to the significant improvement of LeCommie's teammates, and secondarily because of LeCommie.

Fact.

No, that is an opinion and definitely not a fact. And again, dig up the thread and let's go through and see who said what. I'll be waiting.

As far as the improvement is concerned. you are making progress. At least you are off the 21! Good job.

The most realistic measurement of the improvement would be 17. 45-30 implies a 60 percent win rate when LeBron played in 2008. Using that, if he had played 81 like he did in 2009, they would have won 4 more games in 2008 (3.6 rounded up). Realistically, the improvement is 16-18 games.

The Cavs went from #11 in Defense (in 2008) to #3 in 09, and from #16 in 3PT% to #2... those are the two biggest reasons for their significant improvement AND those improvements were the result, first and foremost, of Varejao/Wallace and Mo Williams, respectively.

[Bush4Ever.]

The Cavs were almost identical in defensive efficiency with Varejao on vs. off court in 2009, not even a point difference per 100 possessions:

http://www.82games.com/0809/08CLE11.HTM#onoff

By contrast the Cavs were eight points+ better/100 possessions with Lebron on vs. off court

http://www.82games.com/0809/08CLE9.HTM#onoff

Edit: The equivalent mark is about seven points difference with Wallace, which makes sense. That said, Wallace played 24 minutes a game, Varejao 29, Lebron 38.

[vcsgrizzfan]

The Cavs were almost identical in defensive efficiency with Varejao on vs. off court in 2009, not even a point difference per 100 possessions:

http://www.82games.com/0809/08CLE11.HTM#onoff

By contrast the Cavs were eight points+ better/100 possessions with Lebron on vs. off court

http://www.82games.com/0809/08CLE9.HTM#onoff

Edit: The equivalent mark is about seven points difference with Wallace, which makes sense. That said, Wallace played 24 minutes a game, Varejao 29, Lebron 38.

That defensive difference of 8 points plus per game got LeBron second place in DPOY voting that year.

[thedangerouskitchen]

The Cavs were almost identical in defensive efficiency with Varejao on vs. off court in 2009, not even a point difference per 100 possessions:

http://www.82games.com/0809/08CLE11.HTM#onoff

By contrast the Cavs were eight points+ better/100 possessions with Lebron on vs. off court

http://www.82games.com/0809/08CLE9.HTM#onoff

Edit: The equivalent mark is about seven points difference with Wallace, which makes sense. That said, Wallace played 24 minutes a game, Varejao 29, Lebron 38.

We're talking 2008 vs. 2009, not +/- in 2009 (which is a highly flawed stat anyway).

[vcsgrizzfan]

The Cavs were almost identical in defensive efficiency with Varejao on vs. off court in 2009, not even a point difference per 100 possessions:

http://www.82games.com/0809/08CLE11.HTM#onoff

By contrast the Cavs were eight points+ better/100 possessions with Lebron on vs. off court

http://www.82games.com/0809/08CLE9.HTM#onoff

Edit: The equivalent mark is about seven points difference with Wallace, which makes sense. That said, Wallace played 24 minutes a game, Varejao 29, Lebron 38.

The last chart on the 2009 page which has a "net difference" of 21 points per 100 possessions is crazy. Close to 13 points on the offensive end and a bit above 8 points on the defensive end.

BUT, last year Jokic eclipsed that. He was 24.4. He is criminally underrated.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Funny how bush and grizz will argue to their graves that Big Man Defense is significantly more Valuable than perimeter Defense when it comes to Bill Russell; however when it comes to the impact Varejao and Wallace had in 2009 (vs. 2008) they are quick to dismiss that impact and INSTEAD want to credit the perimeter Defense of LeCommie as the biggest contributor to the Cavs' Defensive improvement in 2009.

You guys need to get yer stories straight, I tell ya.

[Havlicekstealsit]

Still concerned about Wemby's build. Ralph Sampson-esque and he's only 19. Kids these days have been playing 24/7 year round ball so maybe these next couple years he should keep the offseasons light. France's national team will hate it but by the '28 Olympics he'll still be pretty young.