I can win any basketball debate.

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Bush4Ever
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Re: I can win any basketball debate.

Post by Bush4Ever »

AbeVigodaLive wrote:
No. Not at all. I'm probably a much better basketball player than him in real life. But that doesn't mean he's not the better PG for a fictitious team of strangers online.
I wrote a quick computer code that simulated 100 1 on 1 games between us (to 13, alternating possessions).

I won 68 of them, you won 32.

The most frequent score was 13 to 10 in my favor.

So, you have no facts or evidence and I do.
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elmerjfudd
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Re: I can win any basketball debate.

Post by elmerjfudd »

Tell us why Doug Overton is greater than Magic Johnson
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AbeVigodaLive
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Re: I can win any basketball debate.

Post by AbeVigodaLive »

Bush4Ever wrote:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:
No. Not at all. I'm probably a much better basketball player than him in real life. But that doesn't mean he's not the better PG for a fictitious team of strangers online.
I wrote a quick computer code that simulated 100 1 on 1 games between us (to 13, alternating possessions).

I won 68 of them, you won 32.

The most frequent score was 13 to 10 in my favor.

So, you have no facts or evidence and I do.

So the math geek wrote computer code trying to determine who the better PG is... while playing a game of 1-on-1.

I rest my case.
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Bush4Ever
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Re: I can win any basketball debate.

Post by Bush4Ever »

AbeVigodaLive wrote:
Bush4Ever wrote:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:
So the math geek wrote computer code trying to determine who the better PG is... while playing a game of 1-on-1.

I rest my case.
You didn't let me finish. I also noticed you didn' deny my facts.

I am in the process of writing one for 5 on 5 as well.

I have to figure out how to adjust for your frequent back injuries.
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AbeVigodaLive
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Re: I can win any basketball debate.

Post by AbeVigodaLive »

Mikan wrote:Tell me why Mikan is the GOAT

George Mikan WAS the NBA. FACTS:

1. The NBA was forced to change rules to try to slow down his destruction. It widened the free throw lane from 6 feet to almost 13 feet. Didn't stop Mikan.
2. He won "only" 5 titles. But wait... he only played 7 seasons. He retired in his prime because he accomplished everything there was to do in basketball. And he wanted to give other lesser players a chance. So he stepped aside for the good of the league. He was so altruistic he even helped start the ABA to bring more basketball to the masses.
3. One of the seasons he didn't win a title... he played the entire playoffs on a broken leg.
4. A BROKEN LEG!
5. If they kept track of blocked shots, he'd have averaged about 8 per game. Probably.
6. He WAS the NBA. So much so that marquees outside arenas showcased Mikan coming to town... not the Lakers. Did anybody ever do that for Jordan? Wilt? Magic? Of course not.
7. Mikan = GOAT.

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Deez
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Re: I can win any basketball debate.

Post by Deez »

AbeVigodaLive wrote:
Mikan wrote:Tell me why Mikan is the GOAT

George Mikan WAS the NBA. FACTS:

1. The NBA was forced to change rules to try to slow down his destruction. It widened the free throw lane from 6 feet to almost 13 feet. Didn't stop Mikan.
2. He won "only" 5 titles. But wait... he only played 7 seasons. He retired in his prime because he accomplished everything there was to do in basketball. And he wanted to give other lesser players a chance. So he stepped aside for the good of the league. He was so altruistic he even helped start the ABA to bring more basketball to the masses.
3. One of the seasons he didn't win a title... he played the entire playoffs on a broken leg.
4. A BROKEN LEG!
5. If they kept track of blocked shots, he'd have averaged about 8 per game. Probably.
6. He WAS the NBA. So much so that marquees outside arenas showcased Mikan coming to town... not the Lakers. Did anybody ever do that for Jordan? Wilt? Magic? Of course not.
7. Mikan = GOAT.

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Abe you are doing quite well.
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Bush4Ever
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Re: I can win any basketball debate.

Post by Bush4Ever »

Mikan won .71 titles per year (5/7).

Therefore, if he had played as longer as Kareem (20 years?), he would have won approximately 14 titles.

Food for thought.
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AbeVigodaLive
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Re: I can win any basketball debate.

Post by AbeVigodaLive »

Bush4Ever wrote:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:
Bush4Ever wrote:
You didn't let me finish. I also noticed you didn' deny my facts.

I am in the process of writing one for 5 on 5 as well.

I have to figure out how to adjust for your frequent back injuries.

[youtube]gZEdDMQZaCU[/youtube]
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Mikan
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Re: I can win any basketball debate.

Post by Mikan »

AbeVigodaLive wrote:
Mikan wrote:Tell me why Mikan is the GOAT

George Mikan WAS the NBA. FACTS:

1. The NBA was forced to change rules to try to slow down his destruction. It widened the free throw lane from 6 feet to almost 13 feet. Didn't stop Mikan.
2. He won "only" 5 titles. But wait... he only played 7 seasons. He retired in his prime because he accomplished everything there was to do in basketball. And he wanted to give other lesser players a chance. So he stepped aside for the good of the league. He was so altruistic he even helped start the ABA to bring more basketball to the masses.
3. One of the seasons he didn't win a title... he played the entire playoffs on a broken leg.
4. A BROKEN LEG!
5. If they kept track of blocked shots, he'd have averaged about 8 per game. Probably.
6. He WAS the NBA. So much so that marquees outside arenas showcased Mikan coming to town... not the Lakers. Did anybody ever do that for Jordan? Wilt? Magic? Of course not.
7. Mikan = GOAT.

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:clap: Agreed
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Olaf
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Re: I can win any basketball debate.

Post by Olaf »

explain how Kobe Bryant is better at basketball than Michael Jeffery Jordan.
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AbeVigodaLive
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Re: I can win any basketball debate.

Post by AbeVigodaLive »

Olaf wrote:explain how Kobe Bryant is better at basketball than Michael Jeffery Jordan.
Done this before. A long time ago. Can I just copy and paste an old version to save time?

_____________________

A time-out is called. For most games, in most arenas, this means there's a lull. It's a time for fans to stretch. Chomp on a hot dog. Watch outdated video clips on the big screen while hoping to catch a t-shirt from a cannon. Not this time.

Kobe Bryant is in the building. And, the Lakers are down one point with precious few seconds on the clock. As a result, there's a buzz that permeates through the arena. Goosebumps pop on the entire crowd. It's time for the GOAT.

The game resumes. And, the result is actually sort of anticlimactic. Kobe Bean Bryant hits yet another game winner. Ho-hum. Just another day at the office for the player who has just passed Michael Jordan as the world's best basketball player of all-time.

Early Years - Chucker (Jordan) vs. Teammate (Bryant)

Sure, Michael Jordan scored more points. But, he also played about 6,000 more minutes, obviously skewing the totals. Plus, Kobe Bryant was the first non-center to ever be drafted directly from high school to play in the NBA. He was a force from Day One as an 18-year kid fresh from prom with pop superstar, Brandy. But, he was only 18... and the L was afraid of letting such a young guy take over so quickly. Fortunately, Bryant was wise beyond his years. He was a great teammate and accepted his role on the bench as a sign of respect and homage to all the past and present NBA greats, including his father, Joe Bryant.

Jordan came into the L in his prime, from a college basketball factory. He joined a bad team that was desperate to let any rookie come in and take over. It didn't matter if it helped the team win games. Jordan more than obliged. He led the league in shot ATTEMPTS nine times in his first 11 (non-injured) seasons. He even took the 5th most attempts in the league as a ROOKIE!

Bryant just kept waiting. And, waiting. He was the consummate teammate. And, his teammates followed his lead. Finally, the franchise couldn't contain his talent any longer and the Lakers ran away with three straight titles.

Prime Years - Lead Dog (Bryant) vs. Lead Dog 1a (Jordan)

Look, this published (thus obviously legitimate article) isn't aimed to diminish Jordan's legacy. He was the greatest player ever. At least he was until Kobe Bryant surpassed him. (Did Jordan ever do that?... of course not.) To many less trained NBA minds, they see only the top layer of statistics and awards and accolades. But, true savvy NBA minds delve deeper and dig around in the muck that separates the truly elite. That's where Kobe Bryant shines.

Sure, Kobe Bryant teamed with Shaq for a few seasons. But, he proved he could lead a team of complementary players back to the Finals without another star player. And, he proved he could win the Finals with a collection of complementary players, too. Jordan played alongside Scottie Pippen for his entire run of playoff success.

Scottie Pippen made seven All-NBA teams. He often ran the Bulls offense. Plus, he was the best perimeter defender in the league during the Bulls' run. This allowed Jordan to coast on defense by guarding the opposition's weaker perimeter players. Bryant, on the other hand, is considered his era's premiere perimeter defender and challenges the opposition's top scorer. It's a testament to his leadership. He sacrifices individual offensive stats and glory by doing the dirty work necessary for a team to win games and championships.

Take a look at shooting percentages. Jordan bobos contend that it's what really separates the two stars. Jordan shot .497 for his career. Bryant has shot .456 (and rising). But, take a closer look. Bryant is more skilled than Jordan. That allows him to do more with the ball, including shooting beyond 16 feet. Bryant's true shooting percentage is .558 nearly identical to Jordan's! Plus, let's not forget those first few years when Bryant was being asked to take clutch shots in deciding playoff games at the same age when Jordan was playing East Tennessee State. Sure, Bryant's team still counted on the teenager for the biggest shots, but he was a teenager and not yet in his prime. So, his stats suffered.

In addition, the ability to hit three pointers goes beyond the stat sheet... especially in the Triangle offense. The offense is predicated on spacing. And, with Bryant being the superior long-range shooter, the Lakers can space the floor better than Jordan's Bulls ever could.

Remember when I noted that nobody has hit more game-winning shots than Kobe Bryant? It's true. Think about it like this... where would Jordan's legacy be without Steve Kerr? Remember, it was Kerr who bailed out Jordan in the Finals. Before him, it was Paxson. Before him, it was Craig Hodges. Before him, it was Trent Tucker. Jordan always needed that three-point specialist to offset his limited range. Bryant is the top dog AND the three-point specialist for the Lakers. As a result, the Triangle offense runs better.

Doing More with Less.

Jordan lost 52 games and MADE the playoffs, where they were swept immediately in uneventful and predictable fashion. In fact, Jordan's teams were 1 - 9 in the playoffs until Pippen's arrival. Now, take a look at what Kobe Bryant did with a cast of also-rans and stiffs.

Look at some of the starters on Lakers playoff teams: Smush Parker, Brian Cook, Chris Mihm, Luke Walton, Kwame Brown. Yet, not only did the Lakers make the playoffs, they almost pulled off an unfathomable upset in 2006. Led by Bryant's exceptional play on both ends of the court, the Lakers took the heavily favored and All-Star-laden Phoenix Suns squad to a 7th game. Unfortunately, Bryant couldn't do it alone. His team fell apart in the clinching game. Hey, at least he made it there... something that couldn't be said for Michael Jordan, sans Scottie Pippen.

The Future.

Jordan rubes will point to six rings. That's great. But, let's not forget that the guy played until he was 39 years old! Kobe Bryant already has four and he's only 31. He's in his prime. In fact, with his new low-post game, he is shooting at a career high. Many are claiming that he has the best postgame since Hakeem Olajuwon. That's no surprise, the two legends are great friends and worked on each other's low-post games this summer, sharing each other's secrets.

Plus, Bryant is the defending champion. And, he recently won MVP and a Finals MVP. Bryant is finally being rewarded for making his teams relevant every season. Even if his team doesn't ultimately win the title, the Lakers still have made the Finals multiple times before succumbing to other legendary teams. For Jordan, it was feast or famine. Titles or bust. That's great on the up years... but, offers little incentive for fans on the down years of irrelevance.

Bryant is relentless. And, a guy who has never quit. Something that even the biggest Jordan apologist would have to acknowledge was not their boy's strength. Case in point: 2007. Bryant was weary from carrying scrubs like Brown, Walton and Parker to the playoffs. He asked politely for more help. Then, he demanded it like any great leader would. The team finally took his advice and the rest is history. Jordan, on the other hand, has not been as shrewd putting together a team. After all, he's the one who drafted Kwame Brown #1 in the draft! The same carcass who Bryant dragged along to the playoffs.

We've all seen the lists of players, coaches, executives, ex-players, media celebrities, reality show contestants and shopkeepers who regale Bryant with "GOAT" status. The honor is obviously well deserved, and virtually the consensus. More people continue to hop aboard. I should know. I used to despise Kobe Bryant. But, it only took a closer look into his greatness to revel in the player and the person. With his training and his constant improvement, he should remain relevant for another decade. And, that means many more than six titles.

Down goes the title argument. And, down goes the Jordan as GOAT myth.

Get ready for it. It's coming. Or, as many of us NBA minds are quick to note... it's already here.
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Olaf
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Re: I can win any basketball debate.

Post by Olaf »

Wow. I bow down to you, Abe.

another question, non basketball related.

Which movie did you enjoy more, Tangled or Frozen?
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AbeVigodaLive
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Re: I can win any basketball debate.

Post by AbeVigodaLive »

Olaf wrote:Wow. I bow down to you, Abe.

another question, non basketball related.

Which movie did you enjoy more, Tangled or Frozen?

I have not seen Frozen. Seems like a chick flick.
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elmerjfudd
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Re: I can win any basketball debate.

Post by elmerjfudd »

Seems like Abe didn't want to touch mine.
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AbeVigodaLive
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Re: I can win any basketball debate.

Post by AbeVigodaLive »

elmerjfudd wrote:Seems like Abe didn't want to touch mine.

Oh. I missed it. Here it is...

Doug Overton is a humble man. As a devoted family man and teammate, he gave it his all. He was never a distraction, never a problem. Magic Johnson, the much ballyhooed "other" PG, was a mess. He got at least one coach fired and lived the type of sordid lifestyle that derailed at least one possible title opportunity... and destroyed a family. Stricken by a horrible disease that could have easily been avoided had he been wiser, Johnson left an entire franchise out to dry.

Overton on the other hand, was ALWAYS available for a team when it needed him. Case in point: He played for 10 teams in about as many seasons. He was always willing to go any place that needed him — even some locations (NJ, LAC) twice. Or three times. Alas... this is why he never made it to Johnson's level in the eyes of many NBA historians.

You see, those teams he was so willing to help need help with chemistry, not help forcing starting PGs out of a job. Overton knew the importance of chemistry on a basketball team so he would arrive, dazzle with this skills, then move on to the next destination where he could do it again. And again. Whatever the team needed, the league's most altruistic PG was willing to accommodate. Unlike Johnson, who forced the team to his every whim, Overton plugged holes and gaps. The only things Johnson was good at plugging were diseased skanks.

History will be kinder to Johnson on the court. You know, the squeaky wheels get the grease and all that. But ask yourself one question: Did Doug Overton ever choke away an NBA Finals? Magic did... at least once. (see 1984).

So you might be tempted to rest too heavy on stats in this comparison. Be careful. Remember, Overton wasn't a scrub. He was a fixer. Just ask John Stockton who was destroyed routinely by Overton.

21 / 12 / 3 vs. John Stockton in a win.
20 /10 in another game.

As you know, Stockton wasn't a stiff. In fact, he had at least 10 assists a whopping 45 times vs. Magic's Lakers organization. If you want flash and selfishness and reckless behavior (Johnson averaged a whopping 4 TOs per game!!!!), by all means go with him. I'll take Mr. Versatility who was always ready, anywhere, who averaged less than 1 TO per game.

Need more proof who had it all together? Look at their sons. Only one is a star player at Wake Forest. The other is star-crossed purse carrier on the Hollywood walk of fame.
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Ali Natural
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Re: I can win any basketball debate.

Post by Ali Natural »

Make a case for Sedale Threatt being inducted into the HOF


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AbeVigodaLive
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Re: I can win any basketball debate.

Post by AbeVigodaLive »

Ali Natural wrote:Make a case for Sedale Threatt being inducted into the HOF


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Every franchise has high points... and low points. When you have Sedale Threatt, however, there really are no low points.

The Lakers were just leaving the Showtime era. But Shaq and Kobe weren't around yet. You'd think that would make the Lakers irrelevant. It didn't... because of one man. And one man only... Sedale Threatt.

17 - 24 fg
35 points
7 assists
3 steals

That was going up against the vaunted Phoenix Suns team, led by Charles Barkley in the 1993 playoffs. He held All NBA PG Kevin Johnson to only 14 points and a whopping 5 TOs. That's the Sedale Threatt that deserves a place in the HOF. So, if he was that good, why didn't we see more of it?

He was drafted in the 6th round. (Read that again.) Imagine 6 rounds today. That means guys like Connor Oberst from Oberlin College are getting drafted. But don't let the draft spot fool you. Threatt was for real. Despite seemingly insurmountable odds, Threatt not only made the 76ers squad, he carved out a place on it. You're thinking... "big deal." But consider...

The 76ers were defending NBA champs! Now, imagine Connor Oberst from Oberlin College breaking into the lineup of the defending NBA champs. Pretty crazy, right?

The downside to joining such a star-studded veteran team is that they are veterans with demands. And guys like Maurice Cheeks and Dr. J had a lot of clout to shout out fans and coaches and other players screaming to unleash the young PG from West Virginia Institute of Technology. So, Threatt played just enough to entice people, but not enough to steal touches from the good doctor and soon-to-be coach. Threatt was ok with it because he was the ultimate team player. He knew his time would come.

When he was traded to the Bulls, he thought he'd arrived. But, he was barely given more run than Steve Colter. And less than Gene Banks and Brad Sellers. No wonder the Bulls lost so much. More importantly, those early Jordan teams were designed specifically to get the ball to Jordan and have everybody else get out of the way.

That's fine. But what happens when you have a talented PG who can produce 15/8/2/50% every night? You bench him for the more marketable guy. Sedale never started in Chicago despite making half his shots, and averaging the great stat line above (per 36)... despite playing in a PG-adverse offensive system with a still-selfish superstar that ate up dozens of other promising PGs.

Clearly seeing that Jordan couldn't handle the rising PG on the bench, the Bulls traded Threatt to Seattle.

Coach Bernie Bickerstaff used Threatt as a killer weapon off the bench for some very good Seattle teams. But the starting PG, Nate McMillan, was so mentally weak, he was allowed to start just to keep things peaceful. Again, the good soldier Threatt played along. When Gary Payton was drafted, the Sonics were delighted to start Payton and Threatt together. Threatt shot 52% that season. But it was clear... both were on their way to HOF careers as PGs. Which one would be the HOFer in Seattle?

Seattle chose the younger Payton. So, Threatt moved on to LA at age 30. He was hurt, but understood Payton was only 22 and deserved a chance too. But that hurt turned to fire as Threatt dominated in LA for the next 3 seasons. LA fans who lived and died with Magic for more than a decade didn't have to be sad for long. They loved Threatt even more. Can you believe that? Threatt was that good.

Threatt was consistently in the top 10 for ppg/ast/stl among NBA PGs. Year after year. And that precipitous fall expected that everybody predicted for the Lakers never happened. How important was that?

Consider... Shaq never leaves Orlando for the worst team in the L. And that's exactly what LA is if it didn't have Threatt. He was the team's best player for chrissakes.

Threatt was a HOF talent that simply found himself on the wrong teams at the wrong times. In Philly, playing for a veteran-laden championship team clinging to former glory in a fit of jealous rage. In Chicago, playing with a selfish-me-first ballhog trying to figure out how to win using teammates. In Seattle with a young brash HOF PG. But at every stop, Threatt was a KEY player. He always shot around 50%, stole the ball and dished well. More importantly, his teams always won. Threatt played for 5 franchises. He led each to the playoffs.

In fact, he played 14 seasons for 5 different teams.
He made the playoffs an amazing 12 times. Always as a key player.

Sure, there are HOFers with better stats. But a lot of those guys put up those stats playing for losers. While gunning at the detriment of their team. Threatt put up the stats. And he won. But he refused to allow his team to be a loser... even if that meant passing more, defending more and sitting on the bench more.

You can have your chuckers in the HOF if you want. I'll go with a winner like Sedale Threatt every time.
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AbeVigodaLive
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Re: I can win any basketball debate.

Post by AbeVigodaLive »

I win?
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Bush4Ever
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Re: I can win any basketball debate.

Post by Bush4Ever »

AbeVigodaLive wrote:I win?
Why do you seem to think post length is perfectly correlated to the validity and soundness of the argument?

I use to tell students that when you are answering statistical essay questions, the more you write, the more room you have to get things wrong, and that counts against you.

:boxing:
Taking a break from the board. Please reference my last post for more details if you are interested.
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Ali Natural
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Re: I can win any basketball debate.

Post by Ali Natural »

Lol this is good stuff.

Ok one more; explain why the bulls made a mistake trading Olden Polynice for Scottie Pippen.


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