2014 Anger General Greatest of All Time: #7 selection

[vcsgrizzfan]

If Russell's 1950's accomplishments count then so too do Mikan's. If Mikan's Rings count then so should his status among the all-time greats. If the HOF deems his career worthy then his name clearly needs to be included in these lists.

But regardless of all that, Kobe doesn't sniff #7 all-time. Again, if he's #7 then Hondo is Top 5.

How many rings does Hondo have as the best player on his team? None until after Russell retired so how many exactly? How many MVPs? How many finals MVPs?

Hondo is an all time great but as usual, your straw man arguments are exactly that.

So 68 and 69 Russell > 68 and 69 Hondo...?



Havlicek won 1 Finals MVP and surely would have won at least 1-2 if the award were around. He's at least as good as Kobe AND he owns 3 more Rings.

How many MVP votes did Hondo get in those two years? I know Russell got lots.

When Russell retired in '69 and the Celtics went from champions to lottery, where was Hondo?

[thedangerouskitchen]

Hondo isn't top 10, and I think you'd be the only person on here ranking him, regardless of the reasoning involved.

As for Mikan, of course his titles count, his stats, but are those solely the reason you'd have him in the top 10? I distinctly remember you giving him "what if?" awards, as in "what if the FMVP was around back when he played? He'd have a ton!"

As I said... IF Kobe is #7 all-time THEN Hondo is Top 5.

As for Mikan, you'll hear my reason when we vote for the #10 position.

Explain your reasoning for Kobe at 7 equaling Hondo in the top 5. No one ranks Kobe in the top 7 based solely on his titles, if that's what you're thinking.

And lol I can't wait to see your Mikan argument! I plan on ripping it to shreds!

Hondo owns 3 more Rings than Kobe, and would have at least 2-3 FMVP's (if the award were around back then)...

Case-closed.

[876Stephen]

What do you think guys? Do we need a player debate thread for some of these arguments that TDK is proposing for the likes of Mikan and Hondo are better then Kobe as well as Duncan vs Kobe and other current and/or past players?

I like them here.

[vcsgrizzfan]

As I said... IF Kobe is #7 all-time THEN Hondo is Top 5.

As for Mikan, you'll hear my reason when we vote for the #10 position.

Explain your reasoning for Kobe at 7 equaling Hondo in the top 5. No one ranks Kobe in the top 7 based solely on his titles, if that's what you're thinking.

And lol I can't wait to see your Mikan argument! I plan on ripping it to shreds!

Hondo owns 3 more Rings than Kobe, and would have at least 2-3 FMVP's (if the award were around back then)...

Case-closed.

Fuck you love to talk out your ass. Hondo came off the bench and was largely irrelevant to some of those rings, but why let facts get in the way.

[elmouse03]

As I said... IF Kobe is #7 all-time THEN Hondo is Top 5.

As for Mikan, you'll hear my reason when we vote for the #10 position.

Explain your reasoning for Kobe at 7 equaling Hondo in the top 5. No one ranks Kobe in the top 7 based solely on his titles, if that's what you're thinking.

And lol I can't wait to see your Mikan argument! I plan on ripping it to shreds!

Hondo owns 3 more Rings than Kobe, and would have at least 2-3 FMVP's (if the award were around back then)...

Case-closed.

Hondo was great and all but in no way was he better then Kobe.

[elmouse03]

Explain your reasoning for Kobe at 7 equaling Hondo in the top 5. No one ranks Kobe in the top 7 based solely on his titles, if that's what you're thinking.

And lol I can't wait to see your Mikan argument! I plan on ripping it to shreds!

Hondo owns 3 more Rings than Kobe, and would have at least 2-3 FMVP's (if the award were around back then)...

Case-closed.

Fuck you love to talk out your ass. Hondo came off the bench and was largely irrelevant to some of those rings, but why let facts get in the way.

I think Hondo didn't start for the Celtics till Red retired and Russell became the HC. Also came off the bench some late in his career in the late 70s when he was playing. Pretty much identical to another Celtic great in Kevin McHale.

[Deez]

Shaq has as much or more of an argument for this spot over Kobe. How can you not think so?

[elmouse03]

Shaw has as much or more of an argument for this spot over Kobe. How can you not think so?

Robert Horry has 7 rings.

[Y2K]

As I said... IF Kobe is #7 all-time THEN Hondo is Top 5.

As for Mikan, you'll hear my reason when we vote for the #10 position.

Explain your reasoning for Kobe at 7 equaling Hondo in the top 5. No one ranks Kobe in the top 7 based solely on his titles, if that's what you're thinking.

And lol I can't wait to see your Mikan argument! I plan on ripping it to shreds!

Hondo owns 3 more Rings than Kobe, and would have at least 2-3 FMVP's (if the award were around back then)...

Case-closed.

But they WEREN'T around.

[FPL]

Mikan is in the list after the top 10. Wherever that can be.

He's really tough.

If you're talking about pure DOMINANCE regardless of era, he has to be in your top 5, never mind top 10.

He won postseason tournament MVP his first season (and I believe rookie of the year as well...note that he only played a handful of games because he was still in school), won consecutive titles in the NBL for the Chicago Gears (47) and Minny Lakers (48) in the NBL. The Lakers then moved to the BAA where he won his third straight title (49). Then the BAA and NBL merge, he wins once (50), loses but still plays and dominates with what I believe was a broken leg, and finishes off his career with three more titles (52, 53, 54). For those keeping count, he won 7 titles in his first 9 seasons, spanning across 2 different teams, in three different leagues. Probably would win MVP in each season had it existed (he did win the NBL MVP in 48, but the BAA/NBA didn't have the award until 55-56).

So he retires to become the Lakers GM, and comes back to try playing the new game. Unfortunately, the shot clock was too much for him (the goal even in his prime was to wait for Mikan to lumber up the court, give him the ball, and let him go to work), and he couldn't handle some of the more athletic players coming into the league. Mikan wasn't a dominant shotblocker per se, but he was still an intimidator who knocked some away, and anchored some great defenses when his teams were winning titles. Problem is, it's a lot easier to block set shots than it is jumpers, which some of the stars of the league began to prefer. As such, the return wasn't really anything to write home about.

So if we ignore era, Mikan has to be up there with Russell and Jordan in terms of dominance of his peers. Difference is, the latter two played in and dominated the modern game, which is the separating factor IMO.

[elmouse03]

Mikan is in the list after the top 10. Wherever that can be.

He's really tough.

If you're talking about pure DOMINANCE regardless of era, he has to be in your top 5, never mind top 10.

He won postseason tournament MVP his first season (and I believe rookie of the year as well...note that he only played a handful of games because he was still in school), won consecutive titles in the NBL for the Chicago Gears (47) and Minny Lakers (48) in the NBL. The Lakers then moved to the BAA where he won his third straight title (49). Then the BAA and NBL merge, he wins once (50), loses but still plays and dominates with what I believe was a broken leg, and finishes off his career with three more titles (52, 53, 54). For those keeping count, he won 7 titles in his first 9 seasons, spanning across 2 different teams, in three different leagues. Probably would win MVP in each season had it existed (he did win the NBL MVP in 48, but the BAA/NBA didn't have the award until 55-56).

So he retires to become the Lakers GM, and comes back to try playing the new game. Unfortunately, the shot clock was too much for him (the goal even in his prime was to wait for Mikan to lumber up the court, give him the ball, and let him go to work), and he couldn't handle some of the more athletic players coming into the league. Mikan wasn't a dominant shotblocker per se, but he was still an intimidator who knocked some away, and anchored some great defenses when his teams were winning titles. Problem is, it's a lot easier to block set shots than it is jumpers, which some of the stars of the league began to prefer. As such, the return wasn't really anything to write home about.

So if we ignore era, Mikan has to be up there with Russell and Jordan in terms of dominance of his peers. Difference is, the latter two played in and dominated the modern game, which is the separating factor IMO.

The whole era argument gets thrown out of whack for any sport. Can't help when they were born and when they started playing.

[thedangerouskitchen]

How many rings does Hondo have as the best player on his team? None until after Russell retired so how many exactly? How many MVPs? How many finals MVPs?

Hondo is an all time great but as usual, your straw man arguments are exactly that.

So 68 and 69 Russell > 68 and 69 Hondo...?



Havlicek won 1 Finals MVP and surely would have won at least 1-2 if the award were around. He's at least as good as Kobe AND he owns 3 more Rings.

How many MVP votes did Hondo get in those two years? I know Russell got lots.

When Russell retired in '69 and the Celtics went from champions to lottery, where was Hondo?

So MVP "votes" now determines who was the better player, eh? I guess you will agree then, that Kevin Durant is the best player in the NBA.

That aside, when Shaq left after the 04 season, and the Lakers went from the Finals to the lottery the next season, where was Kobe?

[thedangerouskitchen]

Explain your reasoning for Kobe at 7 equaling Hondo in the top 5. No one ranks Kobe in the top 7 based solely on his titles, if that's what you're thinking.

And lol I can't wait to see your Mikan argument! I plan on ripping it to shreds!

Hondo owns 3 more Rings than Kobe, and would have at least 2-3 FMVP's (if the award were around back then)...

Case-closed.

But they WEREN'T around.

So why is Russell considered the GOAT (by many people), with 0 Finals MVP's?

[LNS]

As I said... IF Kobe is #7 all-time THEN Hondo is Top 5.

As for Mikan, you'll hear my reason when we vote for the #10 position.

Explain your reasoning for Kobe at 7 equaling Hondo in the top 5. No one ranks Kobe in the top 7 based solely on his titles, if that's what you're thinking.

And lol I can't wait to see your Mikan argument! I plan on ripping it to shreds!

Hondo owns 3 more Rings than Kobe, and would have at least 2-3 FMVP's (if the award were around back then)...

Case-closed.

We've gone over this before. You can't give out awards based upon assumptions. That'd be like me saying Russell would have 9-10 FMVP's and is the GOAT.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Explain your reasoning for Kobe at 7 equaling Hondo in the top 5. No one ranks Kobe in the top 7 based solely on his titles, if that's what you're thinking.

And lol I can't wait to see your Mikan argument! I plan on ripping it to shreds!

Hondo owns 3 more Rings than Kobe, and would have at least 2-3 FMVP's (if the award were around back then)...

Case-closed.

Fuck you love to talk out your ass. Hondo came off the bench and was largely irrelevant to some of those rings, but why let facts get in the way.

Irrelevant like Kobe averaging 15/3/3/36% in the 00 Finals yet the Lakers still winning the Championship?

Also, Kevin McHale came of the bench too... was he irrelevant to Boston?

[kobeunderbite]

So 68 and 69 Russell > 68 and 69 Hondo...?



Havlicek won 1 Finals MVP and surely would have won at least 1-2 if the award were around. He's at least as good as Kobe AND he owns 3 more Rings.

How many MVP votes did Hondo get in those two years? I know Russell got lots.

When Russell retired in '69 and the Celtics went from champions to lottery, where was Hondo?

So MVP "votes" now determines who was the better player, eh? I guess you will agree then, that Kevin Durant is the best player in the NBA.

That aside, when Shaq left after the 04 season, and the Lakers went from the Finals to the lottery the next season, where was Kobe?

Missing the playoffs is such an enormous hit to a legacy?

How do you explain your ranking Oscar Robertson so highly in that case, given the fact that he was in the lottery for 3 consecutive seasons during his prime?

You drunken shithead.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Explain your reasoning for Kobe at 7 equaling Hondo in the top 5. No one ranks Kobe in the top 7 based solely on his titles, if that's what you're thinking.

And lol I can't wait to see your Mikan argument! I plan on ripping it to shreds!

Hondo owns 3 more Rings than Kobe, and would have at least 2-3 FMVP's (if the award were around back then)...

Case-closed.

We've gone over this before. You can't give out awards based upon assumptions. That'd be like me saying Russell would have 9-10 FMVP's and is the GOAT.

So why is Russell considered the GOAT (by many) with -0- Finals MVP's?

[FPL]

Hondo owns 3 more Rings than Kobe, and would have at least 2-3 FMVP's (if the award were around back then)...

Case-closed.

Probably correct. Havlicek did win in 74 (White won in 76). If the award went to a player on the winning team, he'd win in 69 (West won in reality), and Havlicek would win in 68. We had a nice thread discussing here:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showth ... p?t=275172" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I never got to start threads for earlier seasons, but from reading the papers from both sides for each Finals, we've kinda fleshed out the winners each year going back to the beginning shot clock (Russell would definitely win in 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 66, but he wouldn't win in any other year; Heinsohn would win in 57; Sam Jones probably wins in 64 but Wilt would get consideration; Wilt wins in 67; Pettit wins in 58; Schayes would win in 55; Arizin in 56).

[thedangerouskitchen]

How many MVP votes did Hondo get in those two years? I know Russell got lots.

When Russell retired in '69 and the Celtics went from champions to lottery, where was Hondo?

So MVP "votes" now determines who was the better player, eh? I guess you will agree then, that Kevin Durant is the best player in the NBA.

That aside, when Shaq left after the 04 season, and the Lakers went from the Finals to the lottery the next season, where was Kobe?

Missing the playoffs is such an enormous hit to a legacy?

How do you explain your ranking Oscar Robertson so highly in that case, given the fact that he was in the lottery for 3 consecutive seasons during his prime?

You drunken shithead.

I'm following Grizz' argument you blithering idiot... you're clearly the one who is drunk if you can't follow the flow of a discussion.



... and where exactly do I rank Robertson, genius?

[vcsgrizzfan]

So 68 and 69 Russell > 68 and 69 Hondo...?



Havlicek won 1 Finals MVP and surely would have won at least 1-2 if the award were around. He's at least as good as Kobe AND he owns 3 more Rings.

How many MVP votes did Hondo get in those two years? I know Russell got lots.

When Russell retired in '69 and the Celtics went from champions to lottery, where was Hondo?

So MVP "votes" now determines who was the better player, eh? I guess you will agree then, that Kevin Durant is the best player in the NBA.

That aside, when Shaq left after the 04 season, and the Lakers went from the Finals to the lottery the next season, where was Kobe?

.

Like straw men a lot?

Players voted for MVP. Russell got the votes. Funny thing is, when he retired they went from having the top defensive rating in the league and winning a title to missing the playoffs. I'm thinking the players knew why that defense was winning titles.