2015 Anger General Greatest post-merger Players of All Time #24

[dwcmwa]

J Kidd 107 triple doubles, 3rd all time behind legends Oscar and Magic.

J-Kidd and Payton is a good one, I might lean Payton though because he made 1 more Final and won 1 more ring then Kidd did, along with winning a DPOY. Sure Kidd was a Triple Double Whiz, but Payton's effect on the game was arguably as big if not bigger than Kidd's.

Both definitely are earning of spots in the next couple slots though.

Not weighing in on Payton vs Kidd in particular here, but Payton's ring is pretty much completely irrelevant. They won it as much despite him than because of some positive contribution. He was less of a factor than Norris Cole on a Heat title.

Give me a break, if Payton doesn't hit that clutch shot in Game 3 I believe, the Mavericks win the title that year.

[Odogg]

J Kidd 107 triple doubles, 3rd all time behind legends Oscar and Magic.

George Gervin with 203 games shooting over 50% while scoring 27+ points is best for wing players with at least two "Gs" in their name.

I guess we all have specific stat plateaus we find most important...

Meh.

[AbeVigodaLive]

J-Kidd and Payton is a good one, I might lean Payton though because he made 1 more Final and won 1 more ring then Kidd did, along with winning a DPOY. Sure Kidd was a Triple Double Whiz, but Payton's effect on the game was arguably as big if not bigger than Kidd's.

Both definitely are earning of spots in the next couple slots though.

Not weighing in on Payton vs Kidd in particular here, but Payton's ring is pretty much completely irrelevant. They won it as much despite him than because of some positive contribution. He was less of a factor than Norris Cole on a Heat title.

Give me a break, if Payton doesn't hit that clutch shot in Game 3 I believe, the Mavericks win the title that year.

For what it's worth, Payton averaged 2.7 ppg and shot 37% in the series. Clutch shot or not... Payton was largely irrelevant in that series.

[dwcmwa]

Not weighing in on Payton vs Kidd in particular here, but Payton's ring is pretty much completely irrelevant. They won it as much despite him than because of some positive contribution. He was less of a factor than Norris Cole on a Heat title.

Give me a break, if Payton doesn't hit that clutch shot in Game 3 I believe, the Mavericks win the title that year.

For what it's worth, Payton averaged 2.7 ppg and shot 37% in the series.

and if not for him the cHeat don't have their asterisk title. Instead Game 3 goes to OT, the Mavs probably go up 3-0 and it's Done.

[elmouse03]

In their primes who would you want between Payton and Kidd? I always been a bigger Payton fan myself.

[vcsgrizzfan]

J-Kidd and Payton is a good one, I might lean Payton though because he made 1 more Final and won 1 more ring then Kidd did, along with winning a DPOY. Sure Kidd was a Triple Double Whiz, but Payton's effect on the game was arguably as big if not bigger than Kidd's.

Both definitely are earning of spots in the next couple slots though.

Not weighing in on Payton vs Kidd in particular here, but Payton's ring is pretty much completely irrelevant. They won it as much despite him than because of some positive contribution. He was less of a factor than Norris Cole on a Heat title.

Give me a break, if Payton doesn't hit that clutch shot in Game 3 I believe, the Mavericks win the title that year.

For the amount of time he spent on the floor, he did jack shit. He was timid and useless pretty much the entire series.

In 22 plus minutes per game, he scored 2.7 points a game. Yes 2.7. He also averaged 2 boards and 2 dimes in those 23 minutes. His TS% was an absolutely abysmal 39%. He had the worst offensive rating (81) on the team for anybody playing 10 minutes a game or more and was second only to Jason Williams for worst defensive rating on the team (103). He scored a grand total of 16 points in 134 minutes played and had fewer points than FGAS. He was awful.

[dwcmwa]

Not weighing in on Payton vs Kidd in particular here, but Payton's ring is pretty much completely irrelevant. They won it as much despite him than because of some positive contribution. He was less of a factor than Norris Cole on a Heat title.

Give me a break, if Payton doesn't hit that clutch shot in Game 3 I believe, the Mavericks win the title that year.

For the amount of time he spent on the floor, he did jack shit. He was timid and useless pretty much the entire series.

In 22 plus minutes per game, he scored 2.7 points a game. Yes 2.7. He also averaged 2 boards and 2 dimes in those 23 minutes. His TS% was an absolutely abysmal 39%. He had the worst offensive rating on the team for anybody playing 10 minutes a game or more and was second only to Jason Williams for worst defensive rating on the team. He scored a grand total of 16 points in 134 minutes played and had fewer points than FGAS. He was awful.

Get outta here with your numbers, he saved the series and Miami. Without that shot the Heat might have been swept by the Mavericks cleanly and definitely would have lost the Finals down 0-3.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Give me a break, if Payton doesn't hit that clutch shot in Game 3 I believe, the Mavericks win the title that year.

For what it's worth, Payton averaged 2.7 ppg and shot 37% in the series.

and if not for him the cHeat don't have their asterisk title. Instead Game 3 goes to OT, the Mavs probably go up 3-0 and it's Done.

You're putting an awful lot on one particular play. Payton was scoreless for 19 minutes in that game. Even with the made shot... he had the worst +/- on the team.

Maybe if he had played even halfway decent, the Heat would have won going away...

[vcsgrizzfan]

Give me a break, if Payton doesn't hit that clutch shot in Game 3 I believe, the Mavericks win the title that year.

For the amount of time he spent on the floor, he did jack shit. He was timid and useless pretty much the entire series.

In 22 plus minutes per game, he scored 2.7 points a game. Yes 2.7. He also averaged 2 boards and 2 dimes in those 23 minutes. His TS% was an absolutely abysmal 39%. He had the worst offensive rating on the team for anybody playing 10 minutes a game or more and was second only to Jason Williams for worst defensive rating on the team. He scored a grand total of 16 points in 134 minutes played and had fewer points than FGAS. He was awful.

Get outta here with your numbers, he saved the series and Miami. Without that shot the Heat might have been swept by the Mavericks cleanly.

They would have been better off with Norris Cole. Your shtick is really old. When you say particularly stupid shit, I can't resist calling you on it.

[vcsgrizzfan]

For what it's worth, Payton averaged 2.7 ppg and shot 37% in the series.

and if not for him the cHeat don't have their asterisk title. Instead Game 3 goes to OT, the Mavs probably go up 3-0 and it's Done.

You're putting an awful lot on one particular play. Payton was scoreless for 19 minutes in that game. Even with the made shot... he had the worst +/- on the team.

Maybe if he had played even halfway decent, the Heat would have won going away...

It was almost sad watching him play that series. He was such a shell of what he had once been. He aged very poorly. He was also shitty with the Lakers in the 2004 finals against Detroit. He seemed to get old almost overnight.

[Odogg]

Yes he was terrible in the 04 finals.

Kidd aged much better.

[Bush4Ever]

The Payton vs. Kidd debate is actually a pretty good one.

My initial reaction is Payton, but maybe I'm getting a little too hung up on the "Kidd couldn't shoot straight" thing.

Shooting/Scoring: Payton clearly
Passing: Kidd, but with Payton not outrageously far behind
Defense: Payton, but with Kidd not outrageously far behind
Team Success: Similiar
Other Hardware: Looks like at glance small edge to Kidd
Advanced Analytics: At a glance...looks relatively similar
Volume over career: Kidd
Peak Peformance: Payton

[Robceltsfan]

Am I the only one that just wasn't a big Jason Kidd fan? I can't think of a single circumstance where I'd rather have Jason Kidd over Gary Payton except maybe when their ages advanced a bit.

I don't know why, I just never like J-Kidd.

[BrotherCharles]

The Payton vs. Kidd debate is actually a pretty good one.

My initial reaction is Payton, but maybe I'm getting a little too hung up on the "Kidd couldn't shoot straight" thing.

Shooting/Scoring: Payton clearly
Passing: Kidd, but with Payton not outrageously far behind
Defense: Payton, but with Kidd not outrageously far behind
Team Success: Similiar
Other Hardware: Looks like at glance small edge to Kidd
Advanced Analytics: At a glance...looks relatively similar
Volume over career: Kidd
Peak Peformance: Payton

Steve Nash was not better than either one of them. He never played defense and had he played back in their day the hand checking would have shut down his game. Kevin Johnson was better at the point.

[Robceltsfan]

The Payton vs. Kidd debate is actually a pretty good one.

My initial reaction is Payton, but maybe I'm getting a little too hung up on the "Kidd couldn't shoot straight" thing.

Shooting/Scoring: Payton clearly
Passing: Kidd, but with Payton not outrageously far behind
Defense: Payton, but with Kidd not outrageously far behind
Team Success: Similiar
Other Hardware: Looks like at glance small edge to Kidd
Advanced Analytics: At a glance...looks relatively similar
Volume over career: Kidd
Peak Peformance: Payton

Steve Nash was not better than either one of them. He never played defense and had he played back in their day the hand checking would have shut down his game. Kevin Johnson was better at the point.

Like it shut down John Stockton....right?

Nash was a quicker, better shooting version of Stockton on the offensive end.

[Bush4Ever]

The only thing I think is uniquely interestingly to note about Kidd is that I think he benefited from the basketball fan's tendency for being obsessed with certain "good" discrete benchmarks (like triple-doubles), at the expense of considering performance more globally.

For example, Is a 11 points, 12 assist, 10 rebound game really better than a 20/10/2 game, if the former is paired with 4-14 shooting and 5 TOs, and the later paired with 8-15 shooting and 3 TOs?

Essentially if you are a PG linked with TDs, what you ar really saying is that the guy was unusually good at rebounding for his position. Which is true, but I'm not sure how relevant that is to the bottom line when talking about PGs.

[BrotherCharles]

The Payton vs. Kidd debate is actually a pretty good one.

My initial reaction is Payton, but maybe I'm getting a little too hung up on the "Kidd couldn't shoot straight" thing.

Shooting/Scoring: Payton clearly
Passing: Kidd, but with Payton not outrageously far behind
Defense: Payton, but with Kidd not outrageously far behind
Team Success: Similiar
Other Hardware: Looks like at glance small edge to Kidd
Advanced Analytics: At a glance...looks relatively similar
Volume over career: Kidd
Peak Peformance: Payton

Steve Nash was not better than either one of them. He never played defense and had he played back in their day the hand checking would have shut down his game. Kevin Johnson was better at the point.

Like it shut down John Stockton....right?

Nash was a quicker, better shooting version of Stockton on the offensive end.

Nash benefitted from the hand check rule. He did not play defence and with that you had to discount his game. Every basketball court has two ends to it. He made he players better on the offence and hurt his team on defence.

[Robceltsfan]

Steve Nash was not better than either one of them. He never played defense and had he played back in their day the hand checking would have shut down his game. Kevin Johnson was better at the point.

Like it shut down John Stockton....right?

Nash was a quicker, better shooting version of Stockton on the offensive end.

Nash benefitted from the hand check rule. He did not play defence and with that you had to discount his game. Every basketball court has two ends to it. He made he players better on the offence and hurt his team on defence.

I don't disagree with the defense part, but he also played on a team in Phoenix where defense wasn't much of a necessary commodity. And offensively he's AT LEAST 3 or 4 steps above any other point guard left on this list. He's literally one of the greatest shooters in NBA history and led the league in assists 5 times as well. He's an all-time great offensive point guard.

[BrotherCharles]

Like it shut down John Stockton....right?

Nash was a quicker, better shooting version of Stockton on the offensive end.

Nash benefitted from the hand check rule. He did not play defence and with that you had to discount his game. Every basketball court has two ends to it. He made he players better on the offence and hurt his team on defence.

I don't disagree with the defense part, but he also played on a team in Phoenix where defense wasn't much of a necessary commodity. And offensively he's AT LEAST 3 or 4 steps above any other point guard left on this list. He's literally one of the greatest shooters in NBA history and led the league in assists 5 times as well. He's an all-time great offensive point guard.

His overall numbers were not that great. Stockton had a better end-to-end career.

[Robceltsfan]

Nash benefitted from the hand check rule. He did not play defence and with that you had to discount his game. Every basketball court has two ends to it. He made he players better on the offence and hurt his team on defence.

I don't disagree with the defense part, but he also played on a team in Phoenix where defense wasn't much of a necessary commodity. And offensively he's AT LEAST 3 or 4 steps above any other point guard left on this list. He's literally one of the greatest shooters in NBA history and led the league in assists 5 times as well. He's an all-time great offensive point guard.

His overall numbers were not that great. Stockton had a better end-to-end career.

Stockton was better at getting to the line (which should shut some idiots up on this site who talk about FTAs from then to now) and that trumps up his career PPG by an extra point or more. Steve Nash was the better offensive player and he captained one of the greatest offenses in league history.