2014 Anger General Greatest of All Time #19

[vcsgrizzfan]

The years where both leagues were in existence don't necessarily diminish accomplishments, but you really have to scale back the stats.

[876Stephen]

No disrespect to Dirk but KG definitely has a very strong case to be ranked ahead of Dirk. I thought that it'd be closer but Baylor is somehow racking up votes.

Is it wrong for Baylor to get votes?

Ehh. I think Barry, Isaiah, Dirk, KG should all be ahead of him.

[876Stephen]

No disrespect to Dirk but KG definitely has a very strong case to be ranked ahead of Dirk. I thought that it'd be closer but Baylor is somehow racking up votes.

Obviously. I think KG and Dirk are connected at the hip. Although i think Dirk is better.

[Y2K]

The years where both leagues were in existence don't necessarily diminish accomplishments, but you really have to scale back the stats.

This is exactly what I'm getting at.

I want to ask the question of:

Is it justifiable for us to take his ABA years at face value or no?

[Y2K]

No disrespect to Dirk but KG definitely has a very strong case to be ranked ahead of Dirk. I thought that it'd be closer but Baylor is somehow racking up votes.

Is it wrong for Baylor to get votes?

No, it's not wrong. I Just don't think that he's a top 20 greatest of All Time.

[876Stephen]

No disrespect to Dirk but KG definitely has a very strong case to be ranked ahead of Dirk. I thought that it'd be closer but Baylor is somehow racking up votes.

Is it wrong for Baylor to get votes?

No, it's not wrong. I Just don't think that he's a top 20 greatest of All Time.

I agree

[AbeVigodaLive]

I think it's becoming increasingly obvious that we have a pretty young forum.

West.
Baylor.
Havlicek.

All dropping far lower than I've seen them drop on any other lists. It's cool that we're not just rehashing the same old lists. But some of the comments are a bit humorous.

[vcsgrizzfan]

I think it's becoming increasingly obvious that we have a pretty young forum.

West.
Baylor.
Havlicek.

All dropping far lower than I've seen them drop on any other lists. It's cool that we're not just rehashing the same old lists. But some of the comments are a bit humorous.

I've been cool with West and Baylor being accurately judged.

I'm thinking I'll be pimping Havlicek to where he should be.

[elmouse03]

I think it's becoming increasingly obvious that we have a pretty young forum.

West.
Baylor.
Havlicek.

All dropping far lower than I've seen them drop on any other lists. It's cool that we're not just rehashing the same old lists. But some of the comments are a bit humorous.

I've been cool with West and Baylor being accurately judged.

I'm thinking I'll be pimping Havlicek to where he should be.

Well like I said before. Baylor was the guy who set the stage for those after him like Dr. J, Nique, MJ, LeBron, etc.

Hondo set the stage for guys like Reggie, Ray Allen, Rip, etc. Guys who were always on move able to get open for shots.

[876Stephen]

I think it's becoming increasingly obvious that we have a pretty young forum.

West.
Baylor.
Havlicek.

All dropping far lower than I've seen them drop on any other lists. It's cool that we're not just rehashing the same old lists. But some of the comments are a bit humorous.

Who is in front of Jerry West that should be ranked lower than him? The only argument i can see is for Moses. You really think Baylor and his 0-8 finals record should be ranked ahead of anyone that's already been ranked? I can't even see Baylor being ahead of Malone let alone anyone who's actually won something as a "lead dog."

Look i respect the old time greats as much as anyone. That's why i advocated for Oscar to be where he is. He paved the way for players like Erving, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Lebron etc. But he also has a title and played with shit pre-kareem.


Baylor and Malone have no excuses for not winning a title in my mind especially Baylor.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I think it's becoming increasingly obvious that we have a pretty young forum.

West.
Baylor.
Havlicek.

All dropping far lower than I've seen them drop on any other lists. It's cool that we're not just rehashing the same old lists. But some of the comments are a bit humorous.

Who is in front of Jerry West that should be ranked lower than him? The only argument i can see is for Moses. You really think Baylor and his 0-8 finals record should be ranked ahead of anyone that's already been ranked? I can't even see Baylor being ahead of Malone let alone anyone who's actually won something as a "lead dog."

Look i respect the old time greats as much as anyone. That's why i advocated for Oscar to be where he is. He paved the way for players like Erving, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Lebron etc. But he also has a title and played with shit pre-kareem.


Baylor and Malone have no excuses for not winning a title in my mind especially Baylor.

I didn't claim Baylor should be ahead of anybody already listed. I have him at #19. I just find the "lead dog" argument amusing. It's gained such traction, usually from the same type of guys.

Personally, I think scoring 61 points in a Game 5 of the Finals... and 41 in an OT loss in Game 7... while averaging 41 ppg for the series... shouldn't be held against a player. But hey... Kevin Garnett averaged 18 ppg on 43% shooting as "lead dog"... and Nowitzki averaged 26 ppg on 42% fg as his opponent imploded.

Those are "lead dogs"... Baylor going for 41 / 18 against the best dynasty is NBA history is chump change.

[vcsgrizzfan]

I think it's becoming increasingly obvious that we have a pretty young forum.

West.
Baylor.
Havlicek.

All dropping far lower than I've seen them drop on any other lists. It's cool that we're not just rehashing the same old lists. But some of the comments are a bit humorous.

Who is in front of Jerry West that should be ranked lower than him? The only argument i can see is for Moses. You really think Baylor and his 0-8 finals record should be ranked ahead of anyone that's already been ranked? I can't even see Baylor being ahead of Malone let alone anyone who's actually won something as a "lead dog."

Look i respect the old time greats as much as anyone. That's why i advocated for Oscar to be where he is. He paved the way for players like Erving, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Lebron etc. But he also has a title and played with shit pre-kareem.


Baylor and Malone have no excuses for not winning a title in my mind especially Baylor.

I didn't claim Baylor should be ahead of anybody already listed. I have him at #19. I just find the "lead dog" argument amusing. It's gained such traction, usually from the same type of guys.

Personally, I think scoring 61 points in a Game 5 of the Finals... and 41 in an OT loss in Game 7... while averaging 41 ppg for the series... shouldn't be held against a player. But hey... Kevin Garnett averaged 18 ppg on 43% shooting as "lead dog"... and Nowitzki averaged 26 ppg on 42% fg as his opponent imploded.

Those are "lead dogs"... Baylor going for 41 / 18 against the best dynasty is NBA history is chump change.

Baylor doesn't just not have any lead dog rings, he doesn't have any rings at all. He also gagged it in many big games. He wasn't surrounded by tomato cans most of his career. I have no problem whatsoever taking Garnett over him.

[876Stephen]

I think it's becoming increasingly obvious that we have a pretty young forum.

West.
Baylor.
Havlicek.

All dropping far lower than I've seen them drop on any other lists. It's cool that we're not just rehashing the same old lists. But some of the comments are a bit humorous.

Who is in front of Jerry West that should be ranked lower than him? The only argument i can see is for Moses. You really think Baylor and his 0-8 finals record should be ranked ahead of anyone that's already been ranked? I can't even see Baylor being ahead of Malone let alone anyone who's actually won something as a "lead dog."

Look i respect the old time greats as much as anyone. That's why i advocated for Oscar to be where he is. He paved the way for players like Erving, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Lebron etc. But he also has a title and played with shit pre-kareem.


Baylor and Malone have no excuses for not winning a title in my mind especially Baylor.

I didn't claim Baylor should be ahead of anybody already listed. I have him at #19. I just find the "lead dog" argument amusing. It's gained such traction, usually from the same type of guys.

Personally, I think scoring 61 points in a Game 5 of the Finals... and 41 in an OT loss in Game 7... while averaging 41 ppg for the series... shouldn't be held against a player. But hey... Kevin Garnett averaged 18 ppg on 43% shooting as "lead dog"... and Nowitzki averaged 26 ppg on 42% fg as his opponent imploded.

Those are "lead dogs"... Baylor going for 41 / 18 against the best dynasty is NBA history is chump change.

That was one finals. If it was the only finals he played in your point would have more validity. He played in the finals 8 times. But i'm sure it was his teammates fault every single time. The fact that you don't hold it against Baylor for not winning a title despite appearing there that many times is weird to me.

And it's funny that you mention fg% for Dirk and KG, since Baylor is a career 43% shooter. Basically a chucker. People called him mr inside and West mr outside yet West shot the ball way way than Baylor did.

But i digress.

[elmouse03]

Baylor's finals Stats:

Elgin Baylor:
44 games (16-28); 7 Finals; 0 Championships; 0x FMVP
42.0 MPG; 43% FG; 75% FT; 26.4 PPG; 13.5 RPG; 3.5 APG (-1959)

[vcsgrizzfan]

Baylor's finals Stats:

Elgin Baylor:
44 games (16-28); 7 Finals; 0 Championships; 0x FMVP
42.0 MPG; 43% FG; 75% FT; 26.4 PPG; 13.5 RPG; 3.5 APG (-1959)

They didn't keep track of TOs back then. It wouldn't have been flattering.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Who is in front of Jerry West that should be ranked lower than him? The only argument i can see is for Moses. You really think Baylor and his 0-8 finals record should be ranked ahead of anyone that's already been ranked? I can't even see Baylor being ahead of Malone let alone anyone who's actually won something as a "lead dog."

Look i respect the old time greats as much as anyone. That's why i advocated for Oscar to be where he is. He paved the way for players like Erving, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Lebron etc. But he also has a title and played with shit pre-kareem.


Baylor and Malone have no excuses for not winning a title in my mind especially Baylor.

I didn't claim Baylor should be ahead of anybody already listed. I have him at #19. I just find the "lead dog" argument amusing. It's gained such traction, usually from the same type of guys.

Personally, I think scoring 61 points in a Game 5 of the Finals... and 41 in an OT loss in Game 7... while averaging 41 ppg for the series... shouldn't be held against a player. But hey... Kevin Garnett averaged 18 ppg on 43% shooting as "lead dog"... and Nowitzki averaged 26 ppg on 42% fg as his opponent imploded.

Those are "lead dogs"... Baylor going for 41 / 18 against the best dynasty is NBA history is chump change.

Baylor doesn't just not have any lead dog rings, he doesn't have any rings at all. He also gagged it in many big games. He wasn't surrounded by tomato cans most of his career. I have no problem whatsoever taking Garnett over him.

Garnett got out of the first round all of ONE time with those tomato cans. They never upset a team in 8 seasons.

Baylor not only made it out of the 1st round with Dick Garmaker as his top sidekick... they made the NBA Finals. Which I guess is a bad thing because like the 1962 finals where he went off for 41/18 per game... it just gets chalked up to "8 Finals losses."

I'd be interested to know how Baylor would be perceived if he didn't graciously bow out from the NBA despite playing for the best team on the cusp of the title despite averaging 16/9. Think about that... in today's NBA, guys chase rings at the tail end of their career. Baylor had one FINALLY in his grasp... and he bowed out because he felt like he was hurting the team. I wonder if guys back then were aware of how that would look to posters who never saw them play 40+ years later...

[876Stephen]

Baylor's finals Stats:

Elgin Baylor:
44 games (16-28); 7 Finals; 0 Championships; 0x FMVP
42.0 MPG; 43% FG; 75% FT; 26.4 PPG; 13.5 RPG; 3.5 APG (-1959)

Jerry west averaged 31 ppg in the finals. Baylor also had Wilt for latter years of his career.

[876Stephen]

I didn't claim Baylor should be ahead of anybody already listed. I have him at #19. I just find the "lead dog" argument amusing. It's gained such traction, usually from the same type of guys.

Personally, I think scoring 61 points in a Game 5 of the Finals... and 41 in an OT loss in Game 7... while averaging 41 ppg for the series... shouldn't be held against a player. But hey... Kevin Garnett averaged 18 ppg on 43% shooting as "lead dog"... and Nowitzki averaged 26 ppg on 42% fg as his opponent imploded.

Those are "lead dogs"... Baylor going for 41 / 18 against the best dynasty is NBA history is chump change.

Baylor doesn't just not have any lead dog rings, he doesn't have any rings at all. He also gagged it in many big games. He wasn't surrounded by tomato cans most of his career. I have no problem whatsoever taking Garnett over him.

Garnett got out of the first round all of ONE time with those tomato cans. They never upset a team in 8 seasons.

Baylor not only made it out of the 1st round with Dick Garmaker as his top sidekick... they made the NBA Finals. Which I guess is a bad thing because like the 1962 finals where he went off for 41/18 per game... it just gets chalked up to "8 Finals losses."

I'd be interested to know how Baylor would be perceived if he didn't graciously bow out from the NBA despite playing for the best team on the cusp of the title despite averaging 16/9. Think about that... in today's NBA, guys chase rings at the tail end of their career. Baylor had one FINALLY in his grasp... and he bowed out because he felt like he was hurting the team. I wonder if guys back then were aware of how that would look to posters who never saw them play 40+ years later...

Again your using one example, from one finals when he didn't have a good team around him and he lost. What about the other 7 times? Was that bad teammates as well? Jerry West and his 30 ppg average in the finals not good enough? Wilt, a top 8 player all time isn't good enough? I'm seeing a lot of excuses for Baylor.

[vcsgrizzfan]

I didn't claim Baylor should be ahead of anybody already listed. I have him at #19. I just find the "lead dog" argument amusing. It's gained such traction, usually from the same type of guys.

Personally, I think scoring 61 points in a Game 5 of the Finals... and 41 in an OT loss in Game 7... while averaging 41 ppg for the series... shouldn't be held against a player. But hey... Kevin Garnett averaged 18 ppg on 43% shooting as "lead dog"... and Nowitzki averaged 26 ppg on 42% fg as his opponent imploded.

Those are "lead dogs"... Baylor going for 41 / 18 against the best dynasty is NBA history is chump change.

Baylor doesn't just not have any lead dog rings, he doesn't have any rings at all. He also gagged it in many big games. He wasn't surrounded by tomato cans most of his career. I have no problem whatsoever taking Garnett over him.

Garnett got out of the first round all of ONE time with those tomato cans. They never upset a team in 8 seasons.

Baylor not only made it out of the 1st round with Dick Garmaker as his top sidekick... they made the NBA Finals. Which I guess is a bad thing because like the 1962 finals where he went off for 41/18 per game... it just gets chalked up to "8 Finals losses."

I'd be interested to know how Baylor would be perceived if he didn't graciously bow out from the NBA despite playing for the best team on the cusp of the title despite averaging 16/9. Think about that... in today's NBA, guys chase rings at the tail end of their career. Baylor had one FINALLY in his grasp... and he bowed out because he felt like he was hurting the team. I wonder if guys back then were aware of how that would look to posters who never saw them play 40+ years later...

You're trying too hard. Really. He had West with him pretty much his entire career.

For some reason, you seem to have emotional capital invested in this. I don't get it.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Baylor's finals Stats:

Elgin Baylor:
44 games (16-28); 7 Finals; 0 Championships; 0x FMVP
42.0 MPG; 43% FG; 75% FT; 26.4 PPG; 13.5 RPG; 3.5 APG (-1959)

Jerry west averaged 31 ppg in the finals. Baylor also had Wilt for latter years of his career.

Indeed. When LAL lost those 2 game 7s in 1969 and 1970 and Baylor scored more in Game 7 than he'd averaged previously in the series both years... it was his fault.

Not the fault of his center who shot 5 - 24 from the free throw line in those two games.