True/False: The NBA has less talent now than years prior.

[Y2K]

Kobe faced the toughest competition the league has ever seen, and dominated.

Who?

[zombiesonics]

True, there is more talent in the league today than there has ever been.

[somberbostonian]

"Star" players currently in their absolute prime: LeBron, Carmelo, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard. That's it.

Durant, P. George. Love, Curry, Westbrook, Harden, Griffin, Rose, Irving, Wall, etc. are all 2-3 years away from reaching their full potential. Duncan, Kobe, Dirk, Pierce, KG, etc. are past their prime.

The true golden era will come in a few years when the current "not yet in their prime" players hit their peak. This is still a transitional era when the bulk of the stars are either over the hill or still unpolished.

[steveo]

You know it's bad when players are paying The Dream $100K for 2 weeks worth of lessons/training in posting up.

But then you see absolutely zero change to their game after such lessons. With all the help Dwight has had in his career (Kareem, Hakeem, McHale - some of the best post guys in history), he still has the exact same yawn-bored repetoire.

He's one of the many that only care to rely on athleticism. Once he loses it he's done. Amare shows glimpses of the post moves he learned from Hakeem, but he can barely stay on the floor at this point.

[l3bron]

We've had the influx of European talent to counteract expansion.

What are these "fundamental skills" that get thrown around so casually yet never addressed? Can you shed some light on that?

Just off the top of my head - shooters moving without the ball. Ray Allen was a master at this in his prime, but too many offenses have shooters just standing around.

PGs who bring the ball up the sides instead of the middle. That's one of easiest ways to get trapped.

Boxing out and other low-box footwork for both offense and defense.

Following your shot. Players rarely do this anymore outside the paint. I call it the chuck and backpedal.

Missed midrange jumpers and the ability to transition back on D. Too many players admiring their shot and not hustling back to catch their man.


Like I said, players are looking to bypass these in development by only playing college ball for a year, or even not at all like Brandon Jennings. At the college level, we're deep into a generation of players who are more concerned about their individual outcome than the collective (team) one. You want to work on becoming the better player, or just a better draft pick?

The bulk of the big men can't even post up and be legit scorers. The main bigs who do score rely far more on athleticism, not skill.

Shooters moving without the ball - I'm not exactly sure where you're going with this. Reddick, Durant, Curry, Korver, Martin, etc. all do a phenomenal job moving without the ball. Plus so many teams nowadays are focused on pick-and-rolls so it'd make more sense having shooters space the floor rather than draw up a series of off-ball screens to shoot a jumpshot that's going to be contested by a good defensive team

Point Guards bringing the ball up the sides - I literally only see this when they're calling a timeout or when teams are already pressing them to the sides. Not a big deal by any stretch of the imagination.

Not following your shot - You mean transition defense? It's more fundamentally sound to get back in transition.

Midrange jumpshot - Meh, that's just the transition of the game. Why not step back and go for 3 points instead of taking a long jumpshot for 2 points? Funny how players from the 80's and 90's never receive any criticism for failing to expand their range yet players nowadays are criticized for taking more efficient shots.

This is what's wrong with your type of argument. There is no objective method to keep track of something like how often players boxed out in the 90's compared to today. Everything is subjective and susceptible to human error/bias. It's an inherently poor argument.

As for big men, how many true post threats existed in the 90's anyways? Bigs like Garnett, Dirk, Amare, Webber, Love, Bosh, etc EXPANDED their games to involve perimeter skillsets to make them a more dynamic offensive threat. What fans don't realize is that not every team in the 90's had a Hakeem or Shaq on their roster. If you take the big men from the 90's and compare them to the bigs from the 00's, you'd realize as a collective group, the disparity in talent is nowhere near what the media wants you to believe. A player like Laimbeer would be a towel waver in today's league.

[Y2K]

Just off the top of my head - shooters moving without the ball. Ray Allen was a master at this in his prime, but too many offenses have shooters just standing around.

PGs who bring the ball up the sides instead of the middle. That's one of easiest ways to get trapped.

Boxing out and other low-box footwork for both offense and defense.

Following your shot. Players rarely do this anymore outside the paint. I call it the chuck and backpedal.

Missed midrange jumpers and the ability to transition back on D. Too many players admiring their shot and not hustling back to catch their man.


Like I said, players are looking to bypass these in development by only playing college ball for a year, or even not at all like Brandon Jennings. At the college level, we're deep into a generation of players who are more concerned about their individual outcome than the collective (team) one. You want to work on becoming the better player, or just a better draft pick?

The bulk of the big men can't even post up and be legit scorers. The main bigs who do score rely far more on athleticism, not skill.

Shooters moving without the ball - I'm not exactly sure where you're going with this. Reddick, Durant, Curry, Korver, Martin, etc. all do a phenomenal job moving without the ball. Plus so many teams nowadays are focused on pick-and-rolls so it'd make more sense having shooters space the floor rather than draw up a series of off-ball screens to shoot a jumpshot that's going to be contested by a good defensive team

Point Guards bringing the ball up the sides - I literally only see this when they're calling a timeout or when teams are already pressing them to the sides. Not a big deal by any stretch of the imagination.

Not following your shot - You mean transition defense? It's more fundamentally sound to get back in transition.

Midrange jumpshot - Meh, that's just the transition of the game. Why not step back and go for 3 points instead of taking a long jumpshot for 2 points? Funny how players from the 80's and 90's never receive any criticism for failing to expand their range yet players nowadays are criticized for taking more efficient shots.

This is what's wrong with your type of argument. There is no objective method to keep track of something like how often players boxed out in the 90's compared to today. Everything is subjective and susceptible to human error/bias. It's an inherently poor argument.

As for big men, how many true post threats existed in the 90's anyways? Bigs like Garnett, Dirk, Amare, Webber, Love, Bosh, etc EXPANDED their games to involve perimeter skillsets to make them a more dynamic offensive threat. What fans don't realize is that not every team in the 90's had a Hakeem or Shaq on their roster. If you take the big men from the 90's and compare them to the bigs from the 00's, you'd realize as a collective group, the disparity in talent is nowhere near what the media wants you to believe. A player like Laimbeer would be a towel waver in today's league.

How so?

[Smelters]

Just off the top of my head - shooters moving without the ball. Ray Allen was a master at this in his prime, but too many offenses have shooters just standing around.

PGs who bring the ball up the sides instead of the middle. That's one of easiest ways to get trapped.

Boxing out and other low-box footwork for both offense and defense.

Following your shot. Players rarely do this anymore outside the paint. I call it the chuck and backpedal.

Missed midrange jumpers and the ability to transition back on D. Too many players admiring their shot and not hustling back to catch their man.


Like I said, players are looking to bypass these in development by only playing college ball for a year, or even not at all like Brandon Jennings. At the college level, we're deep into a generation of players who are more concerned about their individual outcome than the collective (team) one. You want to work on becoming the better player, or just a better draft pick?

The bulk of the big men can't even post up and be legit scorers. The main bigs who do score rely far more on athleticism, not skill.

Shooters moving without the ball - I'm not exactly sure where you're going with this. Reddick, Durant, Curry, Korver, Martin, etc. all do a phenomenal job moving without the ball. Plus so many teams nowadays are focused on pick-and-rolls so it'd make more sense having shooters space the floor rather than draw up a series of off-ball screens to shoot a jumpshot that's going to be contested by a good defensive team

Point Guards bringing the ball up the sides - I literally only see this when they're calling a timeout or when teams are already pressing them to the sides. Not a big deal by any stretch of the imagination.

Not following your shot - You mean transition defense? It's more fundamentally sound to get back in transition.

Midrange jumpshot - Meh, that's just the transition of the game. Why not step back and go for 3 points instead of taking a long jumpshot for 2 points? Funny how players from the 80's and 90's never receive any criticism for failing to expand their range yet players nowadays are criticized for taking more efficient shots.

This is what's wrong with your type of argument. There is no objective method to keep track of something like how often players boxed out in the 90's compared to today. Everything is subjective and susceptible to human error/bias. It's an inherently poor argument.

As for big men, how many true post threats existed in the 90's anyways? Bigs like Garnett, Dirk, Amare, Webber, Love, Bosh, etc EXPANDED their games to involve perimeter skillsets to make them a more dynamic offensive threat. What fans don't realize is that not every team in the 90's had a Hakeem or Shaq on their roster. If you take the big men from the 90's and compare them to the bigs from the 00's, you'd realize as a collective group, the disparity in talent is nowhere near what the media wants you to believe. A player like Laimbeer would be a towel waver in today's league.

In today's NBA Laimbeer would probably put up KLove type numbers, a stretch 4 who could rebound and bang with the best of them and shoot the 3. Also remember Hakeem. Mourning, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, etc. etc.
Did you ever see Laimbeer play? You are trying too hard and are getting owned in your own thread.

[rileymartin]

the 90's were relatively weak. I don't think it is a coincidence that Jordan couldn't win in the 80's, but he was able to win in the 90's.

[Smelters]

Please love Lebron, please!!!!!

[steveo]

Rony Seikaly would be a top center in today's nba.

[rileymartin]

Please love Lebron, please!!!!!

why do you want people to love LeBron?

[Y2K]

the 90's were relatively weak. I don't think it is a coincidence that Jordan couldn't win in the 80's, but he was able to win in the 90's.

The 90s weren't weak. They were below the 80s but every era falls short of the 80s.

[ripper76]

Rony Seikaly would be a top center in today's nba.

He was a top center when he played.

[l3bron]

The bulk of the big men can't even post up and be legit scorers. The main bigs who do score rely far more on athleticism, not skill.

Shooters moving without the ball - I'm not exactly sure where you're going with this. Reddick, Durant, Curry, Korver, Martin, etc. all do a phenomenal job moving without the ball. Plus so many teams nowadays are focused on pick-and-rolls so it'd make more sense having shooters space the floor rather than draw up a series of off-ball screens to shoot a jumpshot that's going to be contested by a good defensive team

Point Guards bringing the ball up the sides - I literally only see this when they're calling a timeout or when teams are already pressing them to the sides. Not a big deal by any stretch of the imagination.

Not following your shot - You mean transition defense? It's more fundamentally sound to get back in transition.

Midrange jumpshot - Meh, that's just the transition of the game. Why not step back and go for 3 points instead of taking a long jumpshot for 2 points? Funny how players from the 80's and 90's never receive any criticism for failing to expand their range yet players nowadays are criticized for taking more efficient shots.

This is what's wrong with your type of argument. There is no objective method to keep track of something like how often players boxed out in the 90's compared to today. Everything is subjective and susceptible to human error/bias. It's an inherently poor argument.

As for big men, how many true post threats existed in the 90's anyways? Bigs like Garnett, Dirk, Amare, Webber, Love, Bosh, etc EXPANDED their games to involve perimeter skillsets to make them a more dynamic offensive threat. What fans don't realize is that not every team in the 90's had a Hakeem or Shaq on their roster. If you take the big men from the 90's and compare them to the bigs from the 00's, you'd realize as a collective group, the disparity in talent is nowhere near what the media wants you to believe. A player like Laimbeer would be a towel waver in today's league.

How so?

It'd be difficult for a player who got contracts for being a large bruiser to do so in today's era when he only weighed 10 pounds more than Kevin Durant.

[rileymartin]

Rony Seikaly would be a top center in today's nba.

Irrelevant. In today's NBA, athleticism is more important than having a big lumbering 7 footer clogging the lane.

[rileymartin]

LeBron could have been a top center in the 80's and 90's.

[l3bron]

Is there a way to ignore users? This smelters guy is annoying.

[Havlicekstealsit]

This whole so and so good player from back then would be a 14th man DNP today is more of an insult to their basketball IQ than to the alleged "better athleticism" people try to make today's game out to be. You're assuming someone like Laimbeer, who was good enough to be close to an Ironman from 1983-91 (starting 81-82 games every one of those years) is somehow too stupid to adjust his play for today. There's a reason why Laimbeer will probably get into the Hall of Fame and someone like Greg Kite will not.

[Smelters]

the 90's were relatively weak. I don't think it is a coincidence that Jordan couldn't win in the 80's, but he was able to win in the 90's.

Magic, Worthy, Kareem, Scott, etc.
Bird, McHale, Parish, DJ, Ainge, etc.
MJ............................................................................................

The competition in the 80s was tough and MJ had what to deal with these teams? Orlando Woolridge or maybe Oakley, hahaha

Dude won 3 with Pippen but even his haters think that he should have done it without Pip.
But for ex. some dudes want everyone to accept that Bron had to leave to win, lol!!!

[Sudanese Sensation]

Rony Seikaly would be a top center in today's nba.

That might have something to do with the evolution of the game. The Dolphins and Steelers won a combined six Super Bowls in the 70s and 80s with offenses that featured fullbacks... Now, I can't think of one team in the past decade that featured a fullback.

I wouldn't for a second say today's NFL players are worse than the NFL players of yesterday.