Joker currently has two (2) teammates who are better Offensively this year than Scottie Pippen in 1991...

[Bush4Ever.]

The 1997 Bulls were +5.3/100 possessions without Jordan.
The 1998 Bulls were +1.7/100 possessions without Jordan.

The 2025 Nuggets are -8.6/100 possessions without Jokic.

Sometimes, it really is "that simple" in ball. This is one of those times.

(Source; BR-Play by Play section).

[Da Stars.]

Think through everything you are saying here DaStars. Pippen is pretty much universally considered a top 30 player in NBA history, give or take. He is the best SF from the 90s and certainly a top 6-8 player for the entire decade. And yet, on a comparative basis to top SFs today, his offense is crap. That isn't because he was a crappy player, obviously. It is because the average player is so much better today than they were in the 90s.

I think Madnesssss has a great case actually. If you take today's Jokic, and plunk him in the 90s with Pippen and an well above PF that the Bulls always had on their title winning teams and solid role players, they absolutely steam roll that decade. Jokic dwarfs anyone from the 90s on the offensive side of the ball, including Jordan. And as has been proven multiple times, a well above average defender who makes everyone around him meaningfully better.

The Nuggets supporting cast is weak EXCEPT WHEN JOKIC is on the floor. The data is irrefutable. His incredible passing ability and the fact you have to guard him from 30 feet out means he creates much easier shots for his teammates than they otherwise would get in a more 'typical' environment. This has been proven over and over again as guys shooting percentage both overall and from deep rise dramatically when they are playing with Jokic.

Team him up in the 90s with Pippen, a couple of decent shooters and a slashers like Pippen and PFs of the ilk of Grant and Rodman, and the domination would be laughable.

You and I both know Pip was not a top 30 player in the league with his offense alone. For some fugging reason, this fugging board puts so much emphasis on offense. Very little on defense. Pip could guard 1-4.

So what? It doesn't change the point. It actually makes it stronger. Era adjusted, Pippen is miles better than anyone not named Jokic on the Denver roster. It isn't even debatable. Era adjusted Grant and Rodman dwarf the Nuggets PFs and so on and so forth. Just pulling out today's production (especially when it is inflated simply because of Jokic) and then saying Jokic had a better supporting cast is the stuff of absolute morons.

I never said that. Just saying that Scottie would not play in today's game for not being able to shoot the 3 from his numbers in the LOL, fantastic 90's. Flip side, he would have played minutes per game for his ability to defend. Also supports your argument.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

The 1997 Bulls were +5.3/100 possessions without Jordan.
The 1998 Bulls were +1.7/100 possessions without Jordan.

The 2025 Nuggets are -8.6/100 possessions without Jokic.

Sometimes, it really is "that simple" in ball. This is one of those times.

(Source; BR-Play by Play section).

What are the Nuggets per 100 possessions with Jokic on the floor. Last I had seen the net was over 20 points or something goofy like that between when he's on and when he's not? Just absolutely mind blowing numbers.

[Bush4Ever.]

What are the Nuggets per 100 possessions with Jokic on the floor. Last I had seen the net was over 20 points or something goofy like that between when he's on and when he's not? Just absolutely mind blowing numbers.

Denver w/Jokic: +10.9
Denver w/out Jokic: -8.6
On/Off = 19.5

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

What are the Nuggets per 100 possessions with Jokic on the floor. Last I had seen the net was over 20 points or something goofy like that between when he's on and when he's not? Just absolutely mind blowing numbers.

Denver w/Jokic: +10.9
Denver w/out Jokic: -8.6
On/Off = 19.5

That is just ridiculous. He's pretty good at basketball.

[Bush4Ever.]

Jokic is pretty good at basketball, like Grizz said. I'd even say *very* good.

But yeah, the difference between Jokic and the "others" is probably pretty close to an all-time high (on-off is a reflection of performance, but more narrowly performance differences vs teammates...if Jokic were placed on OKC, he'd be in heaven, but his on/off would definitely dip).

But these last three years Jokic has been in the +19.5-21.9 range.

To anchor that to other seasons in the databall era:

2015/16 Curry: 18.1 and 22.6
2000/01 Shaq: 10.9 and 15.6
2003/05 Duncan: 14.7 and 17.8
2003/04 KG: 23.6 and 20.7
2009 Lebron: 21.2
2005 Nash: 14.9

Whatever you think about Jokic's overall performance, the *gap* between him and his teammates is all-time levels.

KG 2003 and 2004 is actually extremely similar to what Jokic is doing now in terms of (era-adjusted) personal performance, teammate quality, and winning rate.

MVP-level play
Shit teammates
Pretty shitty city (for ball)
Similar on/off
54 game winning pace in two years (Minny) vs. 54 game winning pace from 2023 to present (Denver)

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

Jokic is pretty good at basketball, like Grizz said. I'd even say *very* good.

But yeah, the difference between Jokic and the "others" is probably pretty close to an all-time high (on-off is a reflection of performance, but more narrowly performance differences vs teammates...if Jokic were placed on OKC, he'd be in heaven, but his on/off would definitely dip).

But these last three years Jokic has been in the +19.5-21.9 range.

To anchor that to other seasons in the databall era:

2015/16 Curry: 18.1 and 22.6
2000/01 Shaq: 10.9 and 15.6
2003/05 Duncan: 14.7 and 17.8
2003/04 KG: 23.6 and 20.7
2009 Lebron: 21.2
2005 Nash: 14.9

Whatever you think about Jokic's overall performance, the *gap* between him and his teammates is all-time levels.

KG 2003 and 2004 is actually extremely similar to what Jokic is doing now in terms of (era-adjusted) personal performance, teammate quality, and winning rate.

MVP-level play
Shit teammates
Pretty shitty city (for ball)
Similar on/off
54 game winning pace in two years (Minny) vs. 54 game winning pace from 2023 to present (Denver)

Great stuff. The KG comparison makes a lot of sense to me. His prime in Minnesota was completely wasted. The front office screwed up on the great primes of all time with bumble after bumble. With a decent cast, he could have easily gotten 3 or 4 rings. Circumstances matter so much.

[thedangerouskitchen]

It's sort of a false accomplishment though when half the posts are TDK being on ignore.

Only BITCHES put other posters on ignore... especially when the poster being ignored consistently slaps the stupid out of those doing the ignoring, as this thread confirms.

[Deez]

Ignore is definitely a move a snowflake makes. Wise your hands snowflakes!