Denver without Jokic...

[Alex_Murphy]

in other words water is wet

[lettherebehouse]

They also added the best player in the world outside of the NBA (Kukoc).

...and again, calling a second-round Playoff loss vs. a Championship "not much of a dropoff" is why you can't be taken serious when discussing hoops.

As I suggested before, stick to Hockey, ice fishing and moose hunting.

This thread backfired on the BWGC lol

You should feel shame House. What a feeble effort. Tsk, tsk...

As a neutral observer, I’m just calling balls & strikes here as I see it. It’s that simple. You’ve been outclassed here by your nemesis and that’s ok, it’s still early in the thread.

Good luck

[Da Stars.]

Don’t be the norther pike Grizz.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

Don’t be the norther pike Grizz.

I'm casting, not being reeled. And having fun doing it . Even got a little House while I was at it

[lettherebehouse]

[thedangerouskitchen]

They were CONTENDERS without Jordan. That's the point. Jordan wasn't taking some 30-win squad and making them championship contenders.

Nooooo... the point is teams are worse withOut their superstar.

In the case of the Bulls, they were lucky enough to have two (2) all-time great superstars, which is why their fall-off in 1994 wasn't massive (assuming you view a second-round Playoff loss vs. winning a Championship to be not very significant... and considering you fans of the Modern Era value "stats" and "regular season success" over Championships, I can understand you feeling that way even though astute hoops fans realize just what a YUUUGE fall-off that is).

Also, your "30-win" speculation for a Joker-less Nuggets is pure nonsense for too many reasons, reasons that any knoweledgeable hoops fan understands.

You're right, the 30-win speculation is likely wrong. Their 10-20 record without him over the past 5 seasons puts them at a 27-win clip.

Yes, again... the Nuggets are a worse team withOut their "lone" superstar on the court. Shocking! Who would have thought.

[Bush4Ever.]

"Worse" or "better" carries a pretty wide width.

You can improve a shit team by 1 point a game or a great team by 10 points a game.

The magnitude is what actually matters.

To that end Joker's on/off type statistics are essentially GOAT-tier, or at least exceptionally close.

Edit: To get a sense of it, Joker's BPM from 2021 to present is +13.1.

Jordan's from 1989 through 1993 was +11.2.

Lebron's PEAK season in Cavs 1.0 years was 13.2

Now, shit or average teams are easier to elevate in this way than above-average or great supporting casts so there isn't exactly a straight line between on/off and total performance but at a minimum, we are talking about an extreme situation for Joker.

[thedangerouskitchen]

"Worse" or "better" carries a pretty wide width.

You can improve a shit team by 1 point a game or a great team by 10 points a game.

The magnitude is what actually matters.

To that end Joker's on/off type statistics are essentially GOAT-tier, or at least exceptionally close.

Edit: To get a sense of it, Joker's BPM from 2021 to present is +13.1.

Jordan's from 1989 through 1993 was +11.2.

Lebron's PEAK season in Cavs 1.0 years was 13.2

Now, shit or average teams are easier to elevate in this way than above-average or great supporting casts so there isn't exactly a straight line between on/off and total performance but at a minimum, we are talking about an extreme situation for Joker.

Translation: Teams are better when their superstar/s play.

Thanks for that profound insight, bush. You, rob and grizz have really taught the board something today.

[Bush4Ever.]

Translation: Teams are better when their superstar/s play.

Yes, in the same way that having a sip of beer technically gets you more drunk, and slamming back 10 beers a night (ahem) technically gets you more drunk.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

Translation: Teams are better when their superstar/s play.

Yes, in the same way that having a sip of beer technically gets you more drunk, and slamming back 10 beers a night (ahem) technically gets you more drunk.

Apparently, it's all or none. A 1% improvement is not materially different than a 100% improvement.

[Da Stars.]

Translation: Teams are better when their superstar/s play.

Yes, in the same way that having a sip of beer technically gets you more drunk, and slamming back 10 beers a night (ahem) technically gets you more drunk.

Hey I resemble that remark.

[Da Stars.]

In 92-93 the Bulls beat the Knicks in 6.

In 93-94 the Bulls lost to the Knicks in 7.

Jordan was worth 2 wins!

How did you come up with just 2 wins?

I come up with 2 wins in the semifinals. 4 wins in the conference finals. 4 wins in the finals?

Fwiw I am actually trying to enjoy the NBA.

[thedangerouskitchen]

In 92-93 the Bulls beat the Knicks in 6.

In 93-94 the Bulls lost to the Knicks in 7.

Jordan was worth 2 wins!

How did you come up with just 2 wins?

I come up with 2 wins in the semifinals. 4 wins in the conference finals. 4 wins in the finals?

Fwiw I am actually trying to enjoy the NBA.

LeTots and Modern Era fans only care about Offensive stats and the Regular Season, not the Playoffs/Championships.

[thedangerouskitchen]

In 92-93 the Bulls beat the Knicks in 6.

In 93-94 the Bulls lost to the Knicks in 7.

Jordan was worth 2 wins!

How did you come up with just 2 wins?

I come up with 2 wins in the semifinals. 4 wins in the conference finals. 4 wins in the finals?

Fwiw I am actually trying to enjoy the NBA.

LeTots and Modern Era fans only care about Offensive stats, not Championships.

...and BTW: No Joker, no problem.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

How did you come up with just 2 wins?

I come up with 2 wins in the semifinals. 4 wins in the conference finals. 4 wins in the finals?

Fwiw I am actually trying to enjoy the NBA.

LeTots and Modern Era fans only care about Offensive stats, not Championships.

...and BTW: No Joker, no problem.

Joker won a ring with a relatively horrendous supporting cast. MJ could never...

[thedangerouskitchen]

LeTots and Modern Era fans only care about Offensive stats, not Championships.

...and BTW: No Joker, no problem.

Joker won a ring with a relatively horrendous supporting cast. MJ could never...

Joker's 2023 supporting cast
Murray: 20/4/6 on 45%/40%/83%
Porter: 17/6/1 on 49%/41%/80%
Gordon: 16/7/3 on 56%/35%/61%
Brown: 12/4/2 on 48%/36%/76%
C Pope: 11/3/2 on 46%/42%/82%

You truly need to stop discussing hoops and stick to talking about hockey and ice fishing dude, because you don't have a clue.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

...and BTW: No Joker, no problem.

Joker won a ring with a relatively horrendous supporting cast. MJ could never...

Joker's 2023 supporting cast
Murray: 20/4/6 on 45%/40%/83%
Porter: 17/6/1 on 49%/41%/80%
Gordon: 16/7/3 on 56%/35%/61%
Brown: 12/4/2 on 48%/36%/76%
C Pope: 11/3/2 on 46%/42%/82%

You truly need to stop discussing hoops and stick to talking about hockey and ice fishing dude, because you don't have a clue.

Not a single all star. No one who will ever sniff the Hall of Fame unless Jokic leads them to multiple rings like Russell did for so many. Basically random guys compared to the likes of Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc. MJ could never.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Joker won a ring with a relatively horrendous supporting cast. MJ could never...

Joker's 2023 supporting cast
Murray: 20/4/6 on 45%/40%/83%
Porter: 17/6/1 on 49%/41%/80%
Gordon: 16/7/3 on 56%/35%/61%
Brown: 12/4/2 on 48%/36%/76%
C Pope: 11/3/2 on 46%/42%/82%

You truly need to stop discussing hoops and stick to talking about hockey and ice fishing dude, because you don't have a clue.

Not a single all star. No one who will ever sniff the Hall of Fame unless Jokic leads them to multiple rings like Russell did for so many. Basically random guys compared to the likes of Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc. MJ could never.

Jordan's 1991 supporting cast
Pippen: 18/7/6 on 52%/71%
Grant: 13/8/2 on 55%/71%
Cartwright: 10/6/2 on 49%/70%
BJ: 9/2/4 on 48%/87%
Paxson: 9/1/4 on 55%/44%/83%

Not a single All Star, no HOFERS (Pippen wasn't at that level in 91), but of course Jordan led that core to 3 Championships and transformed them from obscurity to household names... something your boy Joker isn't good enough to do.

Again... stick to ice fishing and moose hunting.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

Cartwright had already been an all star and 20 point scorer. Pretending Pippen wasn't important. Grant was miles better than Gordon and ridiculously underrated PF. BJ showed later he was an all-star.and Paxson was one of the best shooters of the era. Funny how you can twist different player's abilities depending on the argument. Pippen is every bit as good as LeBron in one argument, and was just a passenger in another argument. You have the awareness of a turnip.

Time is never kind to prior generations because people want to believe that they are witnessing the greatest. By the time you go to your grave TDK, MJ will definitely not be seen as GOAT, despite you kicking and screaming. If you were rational, you wouldn't care.

Done for today. Toodles. Going on a beach walk. Have a nice day!

[thedangerouskitchen]

Drivel.

You got NUKED in your own silly thread using your own silly logic, grizz.

See ya!