Shaq vs Jokic

[Uncontroversial]

Peak vs peak, I’m taking jokic over shaq. He’s stupid good. He’s not the force Shaq was in the post (while still being elite in that regard), but he’s better from everywhere else on the court and his shooting outside of 15ft changes the geometry of the court more than shaq ever did, he’s one of the best passers for any position ever, more able to show on switches, and actually comes into the season in “shape”. We’re so lucky to see all these all time players these past 10 years, LeBron, curry, Durant, Giannis, jokic, etc

*like

I don't understand what is so difficult about just appreciating the incredible talent we are witnessing right now. Sit back, and just enjoy.

nostalgia bias is a disease

it's even more prevalent in music than sports

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

Peak vs peak, I’m taking jokic over shaq. He’s stupid good. He’s not the force Shaq was in the post (while still being elite in that regard), but he’s better from everywhere else on the court and his shooting outside of 15ft changes the geometry of the court more than shaq ever did, he’s one of the best passers for any position ever, more able to show on switches, and actually comes into the season in “shape”. We’re so lucky to see all these all time players these past 10 years, LeBron, curry, Durant, Giannis, jokic, etc

*like

I don't understand what is so difficult about just appreciating the incredible talent we are witnessing right now. Sit back, and just enjoy.

nostalgia bias is a disease

it's even more prevalent in the music than sports

I can't talk much about music, because it resonates less with me. I was never that knowledgeable and generally paid less attention than most.

But I've loved most sports since I can ever remember and just enjoy the spectacle. And, generally, that spectacle keeps getting better. Doesn't matter the sport. The players just overall get better, and the depth of talent in most sports has exploded. It's just better, which makes dominant careers ever more difficult.

[kobeunderbite]

*like

I don't understand what is so difficult about just appreciating the incredible talent we are witnessing right now. Sit back, and just enjoy.

nostalgia bias is a disease

it's even more prevalent in the music than sports

Doesn't matter the sport.

I would say it has not happened in tennis and that if for example, Sinner had to face 2011 Djokovic rather than 2024 Djokovic this past January, he would have been lucky to win 6 games in the match and likely goes home in tears.

[Bush4Ever.]

I think talent/performance grinds upward over time, but the rate of change is often different at different points for various reasons.

The NBA has really taken off the last five years or so, when modern insights and styles have fully moved through the system. But I don't think the rate of change was much from 1988 to 1992 for example.

The only other sports I can comment on are BJJ, which has gotten radically better these last 10 years or so, and MMA, which has generally had a steady increase upward at the lower and mid weights but not so much (maybe even worse) at the heavier weights. Unfortunately in that case, the relationship is confounded by PEDs so you are comparing yesterday's supermen to today's regular guys but still...

[kobeunderbite]

I think talent/performance grinds upward over time, but the rate of change is often different at different points for various reasons.

That's fair, I do think the top-50 or top-100 on the ATP is on average stronger now than it was 10-15 and especially 20-30 years ago, however the very top of the game is considerably weaker and less consistent than it was in the previous generation.

[Uncontroversial]

I think talent/performance grinds upward over time, but the rate of change is often different at different points for various reasons.

The NBA has really taken off the last five years or so, when modern insights and styles have fully moved through the system. But I don't think the rate of change was much from 1988 to 1992 for example.

The only other sports I can comment on are BJJ, which has gotten radically better these last 10 years or so, and MMA, which has generally had a steady increase upward at the lower and mid weights but not so much (maybe even worse) at the heavier weights. Unfortunately in that case, the relationship is confounded by PEDs so you are comparing yesterday's supermen to today's regular guys but still...

im pretty sure boxing is not as good as it used to be, but i dont follow it closely

[Sudanese Sensation]

1.They would both get theirs.
2. Neither could guard the other
3) Shaq was an underrated passer for a big man, but he did it the conventional way, out of double teams
4) Jokic is a true point center who can pass from anywhere on the floor.
5) They both would score but Jokic would have more total points because of assists.
6) The original numbers are skewed because they include Shaq's entire playoff career, and he played five or six years where he really wasn't Shaq anymore.

[Sudanese Sensation]

Nostalgia bias is a thing, but so is recency bias, but damn Jokic is good

[Bush4Ever.]

Jokic is also more tough than 1990s centers.

That's a dirty secret most boomers don't want to admit....modern stars are also more alpha and tougher than players in 80s/90s, who defined toughness as "hit a player after the whistle" and "throw a weak strike at a player near a cluster of players so the conflict will be confused/broken up quickly and you won't be at risk for real damage".

When Morris cheap shotted Jokic, Jokic leveled his ass as directly and powerful as he could, and he blasted that fucker right into the ground.

Shaq literally missed Barkley's melon head and Brad Miller's head (when he had his back turned to boot) when he fought.

[Titan18]

Joker is good but his assist numbers aren’t impressive at all. Oh wow he passed to a wide open teammate with a clear passing lane because no one plays d in today’s open court rec league type games.

Shaq’s 3 apg would translate to 8-11 today.

Weak era. Don’t even bother trying to argue otherwise.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

Shaq was an underrated passer out of the double team. He didn't naturally look to make plays when he got the ball in the post. He looked to score. If he got doubled, he was adept at passing out though, limiting the turnovers.

Jokic can score brilliantly out of the post with an array of moves, great footwork and great touch. But, he's also always got an eye open for a cutter or a wide open 3. His court vision is extraordinary.

[manchild98]

Shaq would get more assists if he played in this era just because there is more space to work because almost all NBA players can shoot with range now. He'd still get plenty of dunks and if they doubled him he kicks it out to someone for a 3. But no matter how much he practices he'd never develop a 3 point shot of his own. You could also still send bench players into the game and when he gets the ball in the post swipe hard at his wrists and send the career 53% free throw shooter to the line.

I think he becomes an even worse defender in this era. He was already lazy a ton of the time, but now he has to chase a lot of the Bigs out to the 3 point line. It's hard to see him being a better player in this era with the court being stretched. His era was perfect for him.

[thedangerouskitchen]

I never said Shaq wouldn't get his. But Jokic is getting more between what he gets himself and what he gets for others. 90s rules, today's rules, no rules.

Shaq was basically a one trick pony. It was a helluva trick, but he could only beat you in the post. Jokic can beat you from any point on the floor, including the FT line. You have no strategy of throwing fouls at Jokic like you did with Shaq. He makes his.

Joker wouldn't be playing "any point on the floor" in the 90's - 00's... he'd be playing 90's-00's style/rules, meaning he'd be playing 10-12 feet-in, with a much more crowded paint and less spacing (making it harder to pass), not to mention the slower Pace (yielding fewer possessions, lower Scoring) and the MUCH more physical Defense (and just more physicality in the game all around) and there's absolutely no chance Joker is averaging 25-30 Point Triple Doubles like he does today.

Not a chance in hell.

Joker today, playing under 90's-00's rules/style = a slightly better version of what Arvydas Sabonis might have looked like had he played his prime years in the NBA: A 20/10/5 guy basically. Still very productive, but not more dominating than Shaq.

Joker's only chance would be Hack-A-Shaq... of course he'd foul out in the first Quarter with that strategy, and that would be that.

Real spit.

Why the hell wouldn't Joker play from the elbow or the 3 point line you retard? Because you said so? He can play from wherever the hell he wants. He'd be like Sam Perkins in that sense, except stratospherically better. Fuck you're stupid.

Because Centers weren't playing 15-20+ feet from the basket back in the 90's-00's, meatball... that's like asking, why wouldn't Steph Curry be standing 25 feet from the basket chuckin' 3's all game long if he played during your Glory Days of the 50's/60's?



I mean, isn't that why you/others drool over those "advanced metrics/stats"... as they're "supposed to" provide a credible means of comparing players across different eras BECAUSE the game/rules/styles vary so much from era to era?

Or wait a second, hold on... you're not under the impression that Joker would be playing C in the 90's/00's under today's rules / style, while the rest of the NBA would adhere to the rules/style that actually existed in the 90's/00's... are you?



Gosh I hope not 'cause then you'd be a fool.

Today's Joker playing in the 90's-00's would have to contend with a much slower Pace and far fewer Possessions (leading to lower stat totals all-around), much less floor Spacing / faaaar fewer 3 point shooting (making it harder to Facilitate from the elbow), much more Physicality and pounding/wear-tear on his body (something he doesn't experience in today's free-flowing, zero contact era), and he would be forced to actually defend every possession (which hardly any player does today).

In short Joker would be so far out of his element that he might have ended up staying in the Euroleague if he came up in the 90's-00's. What's most likely though is what I wrote earlier: Jokic in the 90's-00's would be a slightly better version of what Arvydas Sabonis might have looked like if he played his prime years in the NBA.

That's still a legit HOF caliber player, but not on Shaq's level of domination. Not even close.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

Joker wouldn't be playing "any point on the floor" in the 90's - 00's... he'd be playing 90's-00's style/rules, meaning he'd be playing 10-12 feet-in, with a much more crowded paint and less spacing (making it harder to pass), not to mention the slower Pace (yielding fewer possessions, lower Scoring) and the MUCH more physical Defense (and just more physicality in the game all around) and there's absolutely no chance Joker is averaging 25-30 Point Triple Doubles like he does today.

Not a chance in hell.

Joker today, playing under 90's-00's rules/style = a slightly better version of what Arvydas Sabonis might have looked like had he played his prime years in the NBA: A 20/10/5 guy basically. Still very productive, but not more dominating than Shaq.

Joker's only chance would be Hack-A-Shaq... of course he'd foul out in the first Quarter with that strategy, and that would be that.

Real spit.

Why the hell wouldn't Joker play from the elbow or the 3 point line you retard? Because you said so? He can play from wherever the hell he wants. He'd be like Sam Perkins in that sense, except stratospherically better. Fuck you're stupid.

Because Centers weren't playing 15-20+ feet from the basket back in the 90's-00's, meatball... that's like asking, why wouldn't Steph Curry be standing 25 feet from the basket chuckin' 3's all game long if he played during your Glory Days of the 50's/60's?



I mean, isn't that why you/others drool over those "advanced metrics/stats"... as they're "supposed to" provide a credible means of comparing players across different eras BECAUSE the game/rules/styles vary so much from era to era?

Or wait a second, hold on... you're not under the impression that Joker would be playing C in the 90's/00's under today's rules / style, while the rest of the NBA would adhere to the rules/style that actually existed in the 90's/00's... are you?



Gosh I hope not 'cause then you'd be a fool.

Today's Joker playing in the 90's-00's would have to contend with a much slower Pace and far fewer Possessions (leading to lower stat totals all-around), much less floor Spacing / faaaar fewer 3 point shooting (making it harder to Facilitate from the elbow), much more Physicality and pounding/wear-tear on his body (something he doesn't experience in today's free-flowing, zero contact era), and he would be forced to actually defend every possession (which hardly any player does today).

In short Joker would be so far out of his element that he might have ended up staying in the Euroleague if he came up in the 90's-00's. What's most likely though is what I wrote earlier: Jokic in the 90's-00's would be a slightly better version of what Arvydas Sabonis might have looked like if he played his prime years in the NBA.

That's still a legit HOF caliber player, but not on Shaq's level of domination. Not even close.

Are we supposed to pretend Jokic doesn't have the skills he's got? Fuck you're stupid. He can play from anywhere because he can. Shaq didn't because he couldn't. Ewing tried to play further away and hit jumpers, but his range was nowhere near Jokic's and he had nowhere near Jokic's post game.

Laimbeer used to play way away from the bucket on the offensive end for chrissakes. I thought you watched hoops back then. He was taking 20 foot jumpers though because that was the extent of his range.

Jokic, with his skill set, would have completely obliterated the 90s. He would have been an even bigger unicorn than he is now.

I doubt you've ever picked up a basketball and played an organized game. You just don't understand the game.

[Sudanese Sensation]

The great Emmanuel Steward who trained Lennox Lewis, Tommy Hearns, and the Klitschkos said he doesn't like to compare boxers from different eras because each era gets to see what their predecessors did and improve upon it. Same for basketball. The game and players are vastly different than what they were doing even a scant fifteen years ago.

[Da Stars.]

If you were to put Doncic and Da Joker on the same team in the NBA during the 1990's they would make a joke out of the NBA. Who is going to stop the Joker, who is going to stop Doncic?

[AtiliusRegulus]

Jokic gets destroid

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

Jokic gets destroid

Another unbelievably stupid, unsupported take from atti, who should never try to talk hoops seriously.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

If you were to put Doncic and Da Joker on the same team in the NBA during the 1990's they would make a joke out of the NBA. Who is going to stop the Joker, who is going to stop Doncic?

You watch hoops and aren't blinded by a "glory days" bias. Spread the gospel to your fellow boomers who are less enlightened.

[Da Stars.]

If you were to put Doncic and Da Joker on the same team in the NBA during the 1990's they would make a joke out of the NBA. Who is going to stop the Joker, who is going to stop Doncic?

You watch hoops and aren't blinded by a "glory days" bias. Spread the gospel to your fellow boomers who are less enlightened.

LOL. I still have my bias.