Top 10 perimeter defenders ever?

[Bartman]

Next up for Bartfag: “why is everyone so high on Babe Ruth?”

As usual LNS has nothing to contributed except his second rate humor.

[LNS]

“Hey guys what’s the big deal with that Johnny Unitas fellow?”

-Bartfag

[Bartman]

Like I care about baseball and football.

,

[Bartman]

LNS, how would Rocky Marciano do against Ali and Tyson? Would he still dominate?

[LNS]

LNS, how would Rocky Marciano do against Ali and Tyson? Would he still dominate?

He’d be very competitive. He was similar to Frazier to who beat Ali once and pushed him to the limit in the third fight. Marciano might lose a decision to Ali but he had a great chin and would go the distance. He almost got outboxed by Ezzard Charles in his first fight against him, and Ali said Ezzard was a “scientific boxer”.

Tyson was overrated.

[Bartman]

LNS, how would Rocky Marciano do against Ali and Tyson? Would he still dominate?

He’d be very competitive. He was similar to Frazier to who beat Ali once and pushed him to the limit in the third fight. Marciano might lose a decision to Ali but he had a great chin and would go the distance. He almost got outboxed by Ezzard Charles in his first fight against him, and Ali said Ezzard was a “scientific boxer”.

Tyson was overrated.

Very competitive isn't really GOAT status as Grizz is claiming. That's pretty much my point.

[LNS]

LNS, how would Rocky Marciano do against Ali and Tyson? Would he still dominate?

He’d be very competitive. He was similar to Frazier to who beat Ali once and pushed him to the limit in the third fight. Marciano might lose a decision to Ali but he had a great chin and would go the distance. He almost got outboxed by Ezzard Charles in his first fight against him, and Ali said Ezzard was a “scientific boxer”.

Tyson was overrated.

Very competitive isn't really GOAT status as Grizz is claiming. That's pretty much my point.

No one is claiming Rocky is the GOAT though.

[FPL]

Why are you so high on Russell? Just curious, not trolling. You and most of this board is too young to have ever seen him play even Grizz would have been a bit too young at the time to have a deep understanding of the game. There really isn't much footage of his games on youtube, and they aren't playing his old games on NBA tv or ESPN Classic from what I've seen. Just wondering where this passion for Russell came from.

(1) There are probably about 15-20 games worth of footage of Russell, I've seen them. It's not a ton, but you don't get into the readily available footage era until the mid 90s. Seriously, there are about 40 games in the trading community of Hakeem. Does that mean younger people coming up shouldn't become a fan of his?
(2) I helped assemble the gamelog on nbastats.net, which involved using databases like ProQuest to go through every box score and article from his career. So I've read articles on games he played from the Boston Globe, generally the away paper (a couple of teams I didn't see when I worked with them, but in the last few years they've found a number).
(3) In terms of impact data (on/off, with/without, limited game tracking), he rates very well, and I've always been an analytics-heavy guy.
(4) It's not just Russell, I rank players similar to Russell (Hakeem, Garnett, Duncan, Robinson, Wallace, Green, etc) probably higher than anybody else on here. I've always been high on longevity and defense.
(5) The game in the late 60s was closer to the early 80s than the early 80s are to today, and I still think the early 80s are high-level ball.
(6) I don't think a lot of other players from the 60s would translate well. Wilt, Baylor, Oscar, Pettit, etc probably wouldn't translate well. I think West would. Gus Johnson (a name you don't hear often) would. Cousy might.

[Bartman]

He’d be very competitive. He was similar to Frazier to who beat Ali once and pushed him to the limit in the third fight. Marciano might lose a decision to Ali but he had a great chin and would go the distance. He almost got outboxed by Ezzard Charles in his first fight against him, and Ali said Ezzard was a “scientific boxer”.

Tyson was overrated.

Very competitive isn't really GOAT status as Grizz is claiming. That's pretty much my point.

No one is claiming Rocky is the GOAT though.

I’m sure there is dude stuck in the past like Grizz who claims Rocky is the GOAT. Heck, I wouldn’t put it past Grizz to think it.

[Bush4Ever.]

I'm actually surprised LNS believes Rocky would be especially competitive with Ali, peak-to-peak.

[LNS]

I'm actually surprised LNS believes Rocky would be especially competitive with Ali, peak-to-peak.

He never lost, had excellent cardio, was fast and very powerful, and had an iron chin. And like I said... he beat slick fighters in his day.

[Bush4Ever.]

[
He never lost, had excellent cardio, was fast and very powerful, and had an iron chin. And like I said... he beat slick fighters in his day.

Yeah, I don't see it, personally.

Strictly on a physical front, Ali is maybe 25-30 pounds bigger, faster, better hand speed (by lots), a 10ish inch reach advantage, and a strong chin to match Rocky's.

About the only thing Rocky has over him is pure, raw, punching power.

[LNS]

[
He never lost, had excellent cardio, was fast and very powerful, and had an iron chin. And like I said... he beat slick fighters in his day.

Yeah, I don't see it, personally.

It doesn’t matter.

Rocky retired in 1956 and Ali started boxing as a pro in 1960. So there wasn’t some weird generation gap like when people compare modern fighters to fighters from the 1920’s. Meaning the science behind the sport hadn’t evolved all that much, and despite Ali being gifted athletically he wasn’t the most skilled boxer like mouth breathers try to make out (well maybe his footwork...).

I still think he’d beat Rocky via UD but he’d get swarmed the entire time and it wouldn’t be a walk in the park for him. Henry friggin’ Cooper dumped Ali on his ass for crying out loud...

[Bush4Ever.]

"Rocky would go blow-for-blow with peak Ali because Cooper knocked Ali down once when Ali was basically doing a tapdancing clown show, and because he beat slick fighters like 55 year old Archie Moore."

-LNS

What the FUCK dude?

[LNS]

“Some guy who never lost and was known as a cardio machine wouldn’t be able to walk down and be competitive against a guy who was floored several times against lesser opponents.”

-some Brazilian guy

[Bush4Ever.]

Ali by straightforward and uncontroversial decision or mid-late round cut KO.

That's IT.

Shut the FUCK up, Rocky nuthuggers.

[LNS]

Ali by straightforward and uncontroversial decision or mid-late round cut KO.

That's IT.

Shut the FUCK up, Rocky nuthuggers.

No shit Ali would win... that’s literally what I said from the start. But Rocky would be game and he’d make it competitive.

It’s literally impossible to prove either way, but as YOUR Boxing Knowledge Champ I’m absolutely right.

[Bush4Ever.]

[

No shit Ali would win... that’s literally what I said from the start. But Rocky would be game and he’d make it competitive.

He would 100 percent be game.

And it would 100 percent not matter and 100 percent not be competitive in a meaningful sense, peak to peak.

No controversy. No back-and-forth. Nothing.

PERIOD.

[LNS]

[

No shit Ali would win... that’s literally what I said from the start. But Rocky would be game and he’d make it competitive.

He would 100 percent be game.

And it would 100 percent not matter and 100 percent not be competitive in a meaningful sense, peak to peak.

No controversy. No back-and-forth. Nothing.

PERIOD.

Ali would outbox Rocky but he’d be dealing with an immense pressure fighter the entire time. Ali also had a tendency to get sloppy at times and let his hands down, and that could be dangerous against a fighter like Marciano. And you brought up the weight difference but Frazier was barely over 200lbs when he dropped and beat Ali in their first fight, Cooper was under 200lbs when he dropped Ali, so Rocky’s smaller size wouldn’t be a huge factor. The “huge factor” would be Ali’s hand speed and footwork, but he’d be up against arguably the best conditioned pressure fighter he ever faced.

[LNS]

Hey Bush I’ll save you the trouble and post your response for you:

“Peak 100% output vs peak 100% output would make it not very close in favor of Ali.”