Who is better

[LookAway]

Kobe without Shaq or Mj without Pippen?

[Macrotus]

2>0

[PhutureDynasty]

Jordan is the better player but Kobe had more success without his best teammate than Jordan did.

Seems more situational though.

[Bush4Ever.]

As an individual, Jordan really took off and leapt forward from 1987 to 1988.

Pippen was on that 1988 team, but a very minor player.

Jordan's individual performance probably started to hit GOAT-level in 1989, when Pippen was probably in the vicinity of "solid starter".

If you mean literally without Pippen entirely, we are basically talking about his rookie season and his first full season back from major injury (1987) and that's it.

The backpicks project placed Jordan's 1987 season on approximately the level of Kobe's average lift from about 2005 to 2009.

Keep in mind, "Kobe without Shaq" has a much more varied collection of yearly performances than "Jordan without Pippen".

[Macrotus]

in other words...Kobe went through more adversity.

[LookAway]

I think one could give Pippen the majority of the credit for MJ's success. People say MJ was the best at both ends of the floor but Pippen would always guard the other team's best player. How can you be the best when you don't take that defensive challenge. The Bulls don't beat the Lakers for title 1 w/o Pippen guarding Magic.
On the other hand, Kobe won with Pau. A good player who became great playing with Kobe. 2-0 is better than 0-2 to paraphrase Jordan

[Dagger]

MJ is better than Kobe in any iteration you choose. Some outside variable like teammates is irrelevant.

[LookAway]

MJ is better than Kobe in any iteration you choose. Some outside variable like teammates is irrelevant.

Basketball is a team game....

[Bush4Ever.]

I don't think it's clear that very young (pre-1988) Jordan was better than perhaps the average performance of Kobe's best 5-7ish year run post-Shaq.

I think they were roughly equivalent with any differences probably not mattering that much.

I don't believe I would pick the worst of (Bulls) Jordan over the best of Kobe.

There is some overlap in their respective performance distributions. Probably not tons, but probably not zero either.

Jordan wasn't *that* good for his *entire* career.

[Bush4Ever.]

I think one could give Pippen the majority of the credit for MJ's success. People say MJ was the best at both ends of the floor but Pippen would always guard the other team's best player. How can you be the best when you don't take that defensive challenge.

I don't think too many people truly believe Jordan was a superior defensive player than Pippen.

The reason why Pippen generally drew tougher defensive assignments is because it made sense from a comparative advantage perspective and because Jordan had to carry a meaningfully high offensive load.

That would be true even if you thought Jordan and Pippen were equally defensively (actually, it would even apply if you think Jordan was a touch better defensively).

[Dagger]

MJ is better than Kobe in any iteration you choose. Some outside variable like teammates is irrelevant.

Basketball is a team game....

But this is a question about players

[Dagger]

I don't think it's clear that very young (pre-1988) Jordan was better than perhaps the average performance of Kobe's best 5-7ish year run post-Shaq.

I think they were roughly equivalent with any differences probably not mattering that much.

I don't believe I would pick the worst of (Bulls) Jordan over the best of Kobe.

There is some overlap in their respective performance distributions. Probably not tons, but probably not zero either.

Jordan wasn't *that* good for his *entire* career.

Okay, this is not exactly what I meant by “every iteration”. More that I don’t see how adding conditions about “without/with Player X” changes this at all... or any fair like for like, ie peak vs peak, old vs old, etc. But sure, peak Kobe > worst MJ.

[LookAway]

MJ is better than Kobe in any iteration you choose. Some outside variable like teammates is irrelevant.

Basketball is a team game....

But this is a question about players

Some teammates are NOT an outside variable. They are a variable that has to be taken into consideration imo

[LookAway]

I think one could give Pippen the majority of the credit for MJ's success. People say MJ was the best at both ends of the floor but Pippen would always guard the other team's best player. How can you be the best when you don't take that defensive challenge.

I don't think too many people truly believe Jordan was a superior defensive player than Pippen.

The reason why Pippen generally drew tougher defensive assignments is because it made sense from a comparative advantage perspective and because Jordan had to carry a meaningfully high offensive load.

That would be true even if you thought Jordan and Pippen were equally defensively (actually, it would even apply if you think Jordan was a touch better defensively).

I understand and agree. But to illustrate can you imagine Wilt playing Defense for Shaq so Shaq could be just the main offensive threat? How much great offensively would Shaq have been.