Is Dirk overrated historically?

[FPL]

I think he was underrated prior to the title, but now it's too far in the other direction IMO. Amazing player, one of the best big man scorers and pure shooters we've seen. But not a plus defender, elite rebounder, or playmaker - either for his position or in an absolute sense.

Am I crazy to think he's closer to being out of the top 25 than to being in the top 10?

[FPL]

Nobody has him close to top 10.

I have him between 20-23. Sure he's not well rounded, but really the ability to score is the most important ability. Beating the Miami superteam with 40 year old Jason Kidd and Jason Terry was a huge accomplishment.

He schooled Durant in the playoffs that year too.

Maybe not top 10 but I've seen some people put him inside the top 15.

He could score sure, but do we overrate his scoring? He didn't have any semblance of a post game until like 08 or 09. He lost in back to back years in the Finals then in the first round because he couldn't post up.

(By the same virtue, maybe LeBron is overrated as a scorer. He has a great post game now, but not having one is a big part of why he lost in 09, 10, 11 as the favorite.)

[LNS]

He gets brownie points for raping the Heat. I feel he’s rated about right though. He’s an MVP and he carried his team to a title.

[Bush4Ever35]

I tend to put him the cluster at the back of the teens.

I think the main issues might be:

Peak vs. Typical Performance: Dirk probably doesn't jump to mind when thinking of ultra-elite peaks (largely because of defense), while his longevity/average performance combo was quite strong.

Regular Season vs. Playoffs: As I understand it, Dirk overall had stronger performance in playoffs relative to regular season than most legends (as in, the the ratio of playoffs to regular season was higher, not that his overall play was automatically higher). His playoff rebounding numbers are also solid especially defensively (14% of all rebounds, 24.4% defensive).

Direct vs. Indirect Offense: I was under the impression Dirk's spacing abilities were a huge boon to his teammates, leading to a lot of indirect impact offensively.

Consider him leading this group of players to the top offensive ranking in 2006. Not exactly a star-studded lineup:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/te ... /2006.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think if you took the least generous combination of the above categories, you'd probably place him in the bottom of the top 20. The most generous...perhaps towards the middle of the teens.

Clearly ahead of him:
Jordan
Russell
Lebron
Kareem
Duncan
Shaq
Magic
Bird
Kobe
Hakeem
Wilt

Probably Ahead of him:
Garnett
Oscar
Karl Malone
Jerry West

Same Tier (Roughly):
Barkley
D-Rob
Erving
Pippen
Wade
Nash

IMO.

[l3bron]

Wherever KG is ranked, above that.

[rtiff68]

I tend to put him the cluster at the back of the teens.

I think the main issues might be:

Peak vs. Typical Performance: Dirk probably doesn't jump to mind when thinking of ultra-elite peaks (largely because of defense), while his longevity/average performance combo was quite strong.

Regular Season vs. Playoffs: As I understand it, Dirk overall had stronger performance in playoffs relative to regular season than most legends (as in, the the ratio of playoffs to regular season was higher, not that his overall play was automatically higher). His playoff rebounding numbers are also solid especially defensively (14% of all rebounds, 24.4% defensive).

Direct vs. Indirect Offense: I was under the impression Dirk's spacing abilities were a huge boon to his teammates, leading to a lot of indirect impact offensively.

Consider him leading this group of players to the top offensive ranking in 2006. Not exactly a star-studded lineup:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/te ... /2006.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think if you took the least generous combination of the above categories, you'd probably place him in the bottom of the top 20. The most generous...perhaps towards the middle of the teens.

Clearly ahead of him:
Jordan
Russell
Lebron
Kareem
Duncan
Shaq
Magic
Bird
Kobe
Hakeem
Wilt

Probably Ahead of him:
Garnett
Oscar
Karl Malone
Jerry West

Same Tier (Roughly):
Barkley
D-Rob
Erving
Pippen
Wade
Nash

IMO.

No Curry or Durant in any of those tiers?

[Alex_Murphy]

I tend to put him the cluster at the back of the teens.

I think the main issues might be:

Peak vs. Typical Performance: Dirk probably doesn't jump to mind when thinking of ultra-elite peaks (largely because of defense), while his longevity/average performance combo was quite strong.

Regular Season vs. Playoffs: As I understand it, Dirk overall had stronger performance in playoffs relative to regular season than most legends (as in, the the ratio of playoffs to regular season was higher, not that his overall play was automatically higher). His playoff rebounding numbers are also solid especially defensively (14% of all rebounds, 24.4% defensive).

Direct vs. Indirect Offense: I was under the impression Dirk's spacing abilities were a huge boon to his teammates, leading to a lot of indirect impact offensively.

Consider him leading this group of players to the top offensive ranking in 2006. Not exactly a star-studded lineup:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/te ... /2006.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think if you took the least generous combination of the above categories, you'd probably place him in the bottom of the top 20. The most generous...perhaps towards the middle of the teens.

Clearly ahead of him:
Jordan
Russell
Lebron
Kareem
Duncan
Shaq
Magic
Bird
Kobe
Hakeem
Wilt

Probably Ahead of him:
Garnett
Oscar
Karl Malone
Jerry West

Same Tier (Roughly):
Barkley
D-Rob
Erving
Pippen
Wade
Nash

IMO.

No Curry or Durant in any of those tiers?

Nope.

[Bush4Ever35]

No Curry or Durant in any of those tiers?

Whoops, you are right. I wasn't even thinking about them.

I don't think either is clearly ahead of Dirk for accumulated career value though, just because of the differences in tenure, even though indeed both peaked higher than Dirk (Curry significantly higher).

Durant perhaps in the same cluster of players. Curry might need another year or two but is clearly on pace for that and more.

I do think before it's all said and done, they'll both be ranked in a tier above Dirk (at least, perhaps more for Curry).

[Alex_Murphy]

This is the objectively correct order of the greatest player of all time. The active players can still move up.

Jordan
Kareem
Kobe
Magic
Duncan
Shaq
Curry
Durant
Russell
LeBron
Bird
Hakeem
Wilt
Wade
Pippen
Dirk
Garnett

Why you got Kareem so high? You some kind of muzzy lover or something ?

[Bush4Ever35]

Why you got Kareem so high? You some kind of muzzy lover or something ?

Kareem is pretty much the gold-standard for combining longevity with strong performance year-over-year.

He was back in the day basically what Lebron is now, with a somewhat weaker peak.

If you value accumulated career value, one can make a pretty easy case for him being in the top 3.

[Alex_Murphy]

Why you got Kareem so high? You some kind of muzzy lover or something ?

Kareem is pretty much the gold-standard for combining longevity with strong performance year-over-year.

He was back in the day basically what Lebron is now, with a somewhat weaker peak.

If you value accumulated career value, one can make a pretty easy case for him being in the top 3.

Muzzy lover... you're going on ignore

[FPL]

Why you got Kareem so high? You some kind of muzzy lover or something ?

Kareem is pretty much the gold-standard for combining longevity with strong performance year-over-year.

He was back in the day basically what Lebron is now, with a somewhat weaker peak.

If you value accumulated career value, one can make a pretty easy case for him being in the top 3.

Today? Maybe, since the big is devalued. Though In the 70s he was pretty mobile.

To be honest, Kareem is pretty tough to place. I'm lower on his pre-merger years (since I think people just look at the goudy stats, which are in part due to a dearth of talent when the leagues were split), but he was probably at his best defensively in 74. Though most people have his peak in 77.

Then again, LeBron has the playmaking advantage, and guys who can create for others have massive footprints in the different impact stats we have.

[FPL]

This is the objectively correct order of the greatest player of all time. The active players can still move up.

Jordan
Kareem
Kobe
Magic
Duncan
Shaq
Curry
Durant
Russell
LeBron
Bird
Hakeem
Wilt
Wade
Pippen
Dirk
Garnett

What does Kawhi need to get into the top 20 or so? Would MVP and a title with another team get him there?

[Alex_Murphy]

Why you got Kareem so high? You some kind of muzzy lover or something ?

Kareem is pretty much the gold-standard for combining longevity with strong performance year-over-year.

He was back in the day basically what Lebron is now, with a somewhat weaker peak.

If you value accumulated career value, one can make a pretty easy case for him being in the top 3.

Today? Maybe, since the big is devalued. Though In the 70s he was pretty mobile.

To be honest, Kareem is pretty tough to place. I'm lower on his pre-merger years (since I think people just look at the goudy stats, which are in part due to a dearth of talent when the leagues were split), but he was probably at his best defensively in 74. Though most people have his peak in 77.

Then again, LeBron has the playmaking advantage, and guys who can create for others have massive footprints in the different impact stats we have.

That what I'm talking about... I think it's fair to weigh KAJ against other bigs of any era... would even be fair to weigh him against moderns era bigs like Embiid and AD but at the end of the day a basketball player's ability to score from the perimeter in addition to dominating the paint and emphasis on playmaking is always more valued on the hierarchy of GOATs

[Chooch]

Curry and Durant are not top 10. Probably not even top 15 yet.

[Bush4Ever35]

Today? Maybe, since the big is devalued. Though In the 70s he was pretty mobile.

To be honest, Kareem is pretty tough to place. I'm lower on his pre-merger years (since I think people just look at the goudy stats, which are in part due to a dearth of talent when the leagues were split), but he was probably at his best defensively in 74. Though most people have his peak in 77.

Then again, LeBron has the playmaking advantage, and guys who can create for others have massive footprints in the different impact stats we have.

I actually just meant like Lebron in possessing strong average yearly performance combined with exceptional longevity.

Probably wasn't clear.

Though it doesn't really relate to my original point, I'm not sure the degree to which league dilution is really a powerful knock against Kareem in particular.

He played center, and the NBA seemed to have a pretty healthy amount of talent at center specifically in the 1970s.

It's not clear to me at all that there was less talent at center in say...1975 NBA than say...1960 NBA, despite the former league having less than 100 percent of all available top talent.

Moreover, he also performed very admirably immediately post-merger. 1977 (first merged season) was at least as good as 1976, and 1978 probably better than 1975, etc...

I don't think the ABA effect was equally distributed among all stars of that era, and I think the evidence is pretty solid that Kareem wasn't particularly boosted by the ABA/NBA split.

IMO.

[Shill Jackson]

Dirk is the greatest non-American NBAer (assuming you don’t count Timmy)
and Kareem is the GOAT, at every level of his career.

[PhutureDynasty]

Dirk is the greatest non-American NBAer (assuming you don’t count Timmy)
and Kareem is the GOAT, at every level of his career.

Isn't Dream from an African country?

[Shill Jackson]

Dirk is the greatest non-American NBAer (assuming you don’t count Timmy)
and Kareem is the GOAT, at every level of his career.

Isn't Dream from an African country?

may have forgotten him, although he did play college in America like Timmy